Okay, yes, I believe it's 100% fiction, so it doesn't matter, but I can't help it, it's bugging me. Let's say, for argument's sake, the fairy tale of Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden actually happened the way the story says it did. I think Adam and Eve got way too much blame for such a slight offense! They didn't grow up in the Garden. According to the Bible they were created as fully-formed adults miraculously capable of speech. (The Lord really wanted to hit the ground running with those two) He tells them they are welcome to anything in the garden but the apples. "Do not eat the apples."
And they're like, "Okay person and/or deity we just met, I think we can avoid eating the apples." And then they meet the serpent. They have no idea he's the devil, or that it's odd a snake is talking to them. All they know is he's been in the garden longer than they have so he must know a few things. When he tells them God is only telling them not to eat the apples because He doesn't want them to become as powerful as He is, why wouldn't they believe him? This was probably their fist experience with deceit. How were they supposed to know the snake was lying? Because they believed the serpent, suffering and death are now in the world! It seems like the Lord overreacted there. Maybe if he had just calmed down, taken a few deep breaths, had an iced tea or something, he wouldn't have acted like such a dick. It just seems like the writers should have made God more reasonable than they did is all I'm saying. Thank you for indulging me.
Oh! Oh! As long as we are pretending, let's (for arguments sake, of course) pretend that EVERY religion is right, and try to find a way to make that story plausible! For arguments, sake, of course.
And ... arguments you will have!
Adam and Eve were given the knowledge that they were not to eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge, and that knowledge itself must have come from the Tree of Knowledge. The authors of the Buy Bull clearly had not bothered to think that one through.
You have to try to think more like a Christian or Gnostic Christian to understand Eden.
You see evil and failure while not understanding why Christians sing of Adam's sin as a happy fault and necessary to God's plan.
I am my God, but recognize that nature rules me and she also recognizes that the evil men do when competing and creating victims, is a small evil when compared to the price of ending our evolution by not competing.
If any of that makes sense to you, here is a TLDR
Eve was correct in eating of the tree of knowledge and rejecting God.
It was God's plan from the beginning to have Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit. This can be demonstrated by the fact that the bible says that Jesus "was crucified from the foundations of the Earth," that is to say, God planned to crucify Jesus as atonement for sin before he even created human beings or God damned sin.
1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.
This indicates that Jesus had no choice.
If God had not intended humans to sin from the beginning, why did he build into the Creation this "solution" for sin? Why create a solution for a problem you do not anticipate?
God knew that the moment he said "don't eat from that tree," the die was cast. The eating was inevitable. Eve was merely following the plan.
This then begs the question.
What kind of God would plan and execute the murder of his own son when there was absolutely no need to?
Only an insane and immoral God. That’s who.
The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice, thus showing it‘s immorality.
One of Christianity's highest form of immorality is what they have done to women. They have denied them equality and subjugated them to men.
Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by whipping out their favorite "free will!", or “ it’s all man’s fault”.
That is "God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy."
But this simply avoids God's culpability as the author of Human Nature. Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.
If all sin by nature, then the sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not sin. That being the case, for God to punish us for following the instincts and natures he put in us would be quite wrong.
Psalm 51:5 "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me."
Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil is all human generated. Evil is our responsibility.
Much has been written to explain what I see as a natural part of evolution.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created.
Evil then is only human to human.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil at all times.
Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.
This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.
Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, we should all see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us.
There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.
All that stuff with the mud man and rib girl happens in chapter 2 of Genesis. Chapter One is even more nuts by claiming everything sprung up in 6 days, male and female of all sorts, including human men and women. PLUS, the claim is everything is good, great even so God takes 5 and has a rest up.
It's not even a very good creation myth, other cultures have way better ones, IMHO.
What I find interesting is that the Catholic Church denied the existence of evolution for decades. Then, when just about every scientist on earth (besides that nut who built the arc) came out saying that evolution is the most logical conclusion we can reach in regards to how we developed as a species, suddenly the position the church now takes on evolution is that yes, it did happen, but God was behind it! He guided it and made sure it came out to his liking. Such a sad reach....
You are to dither out the message within the myth.
Have you given up?
The lesson of Eden is seeing Eve and Satan, the Light Bringer, both female, as the heroes of the story.
What do you see as the moral of the story?
What color should God be?
If you do not believe, it maters not, if you bend the knee to a white government, your God is white.
Your God is your color. Right?
Our peoples live in ethnic neighborhoods by color and desire all over the world ---- intentionally.
Do not fuck with good tribal instincts.
You will loose.
It is interesting to read the Genesis account with a true literary scholar such as Mauro Biglano giving you the Leningrad Codex literal Hebrew translation. Everything you thought you knew about the Adam & Eve story may just shift quite a bit considering that the typical KJV translation tends to mislead you in so many ways. When I was investigating my own religion on my path to Agnosticism, this type of study along with many other eye opening bible topics, helped me realize just how many lies and deceptions are in most (if not all) forms of organized religions. Once you see it...you just cannot unsee it! Check out Mauro Biglano on youtube and discover how following the literal words of the bible paint a very bright picture of ancient aliens seeding the planet....and how God/Elohim's glory wasn't his countenance but his floating vehicle. You can't make this stuff up.....
Here is a twist I bet nobody has thought about...according to "The BIBBLE"...God created Adam out of sand...he THEN took one of ADAMS RIBS and created EVE(follow the DNA with me for a second)...SOOOO...he CLONED ADAM and gave the CLONE a TWIST...therefore Adam and Eve are TECHNICALLY CLOSER BLOOD RELATION than BROTHER AND SISTER...this is the EPITOME of "The BIBBLES" OBSESSION WITH INCEST. I will let myself out.
That are numerous deluded who believe men have one less rib than women and this is their gotcha moment.
"How do you think police can tell if skeletal remains are male or female then?"
And there is no evidence that will help them to reality.
@BufftonBeotch absolutely correct. Point is, the whole religion fantasy is just that...a deluded, biggoted sanctimonious, sexually devient, male dominated dystopia that, suppresses women and the search for real truth in life...through the fear of death. And as a side note...Christianity has done MORE for the belief in SATAN than the people who WORSHIP SATAN. Pathetic.
@BufftonBeotch Without DNA, skeletal remains are just a scientific guessing game - women's pelvis is usually somewhat different, but, not always.
I am a Gnostic Christian with no love of immoral Christians, but yours is a cheep shot, apologetics wise, at one of the two creation of Eve scenarios without likely understanding that, in yours, Yahweh and Adam are androgynous and they had to get the vile female nature out of Adam so that we could all hate Eve, as we are led to do by Satan being depicted as female.
I like your conclusions but if on a real religious forum, even the poor apologists there would clean your clock.
I do not say that in a happy way.
P.S Incest is best when there is no other way.
Perhaps that is why Christians sing of Adam's sin as a happy fault.
@Greatest the idiot Christians never could come to terms with the female aspect of the Creation myth. As women at the Dawn of man were generally in a weaker position(physically) the early Religious leaders took full advantage and painted them into the ultimate corner. The Torah laid the foundation for subjugation(as an art form...smfh) with Genesis. The rest is all down hill from there and history as we know it. I hate what religion has done to humanity and am committed to pulling the rug out from under it whenever I get a chance.
@phoenixone1 I disagree with your views.
Before supernatural belief polluted the religious stratosphere, Jewry and then early Christianity were well on their way to equality and were giving women more respect than today.
You would have to read some history.
@Greatest supernatural belief didn't "pollute" the religious stratosphere...Christian Religious Doctrine attempted to annihilate every other form of belief system, and /or absorb them. ALL belief systems are supernatural in nature...with the exception of Athieism. To say that "Jewry and Early Christianity were well on their way to equality and were giving women more respect than today"...??? Sounds to me like you are trying to justify Christianity...
For the record, nowhere does it say that the serpent is the devil. It is merely a talking serpent. One more item for the plausibility meter.
The environment has changed. Serpents have a great way of surviving. Stay still when it's cold, and keep your nonexistent lips shut! I tend to live like a snake.
@Fit50something they talk to me whenever I see one. The little garden snakes say, "I'm not here and you do not see me." The copperheads say, "Hey, I'm dangerous." However, the copperheads have never tried to bite me as I treat them politely.
@BOBdammit snakes were given bad reputations for just being snakes. Humans kill each other with impunity, but let a snake bite someone (out of self defense) and it is the spawn of the devil and to be immediately destroyed.
Eve and Satan are the two female heroes of Eden.
You will not understand Christianity if you ignore their iconography of Satan as female as they depict.
Get to know your enemy better.
@Greatest dang it, I can't think of the name of the religious sect who said Eve was a liberator. It's not pantheism, but seems to start with an "a." Maybe it will come to me later.
For sure, the snake was sometimes depicted as female in iconography, especially in the Medieval era.
I don't think it happened either, but I don't know that I'd call the Eden story fiction. If it is, it's not the same kind of thing that our modern novelists write; it's a kind of fiction called myth. And to look at myth the way you'd read Austen or Dostoevsky or someone like that may not be the most interesting way to go. (Although it can be interesting to look at fiction with an eye to how myth has survived in that form.) A myth might be a story that tells a universal human truth, assuming there is such a thing, in a symbolic or allegorical way. As such, myths tend to appear and reappear, with different names and faces, in places separated by large expanses of space and time.
What follows is a bit of self-plagiarization from something I wrote and posted here a little while back: What Milton--himself a Christian-- understood and most Christians do not is that the Fall had to happen: the primal couple had to eat the fruit because it is knowledge that enabled humanity—or, in fact, a breed or breeds of primates—to become human. In these connections it is unsurprising that know-nothing anti-intellectualism, at least in these disunited States, almost always dresses itself up as Christianity.
The only thing that I remember reading in Milton was that he said just because god knew the future didn't mean that HE preordained it--he just knew what was going to happen. I understand that, but it still adheres to being destined to act in a certain way with absolutely no variance.
It is all plagiarized rehash for sure.
Understand Eden fully, and you understand everything the wise men can teach.
Was there a winner and loser in Eden, real or fantasy?
Who do you see as the hero or destroyer of God's plan?
Nothing but a vast tissue of lies.
You are correct.
It was not written to be taken as truth.
A shame though that we have to remind the less bright.
Neither was any of the old myths and legends true.
The thing you should be clicking your heels to try to get, is a platform from which you can tell many.
They will not seek a good God if they think they have one already.
Never mind that he is genocidal, homophobic and misogynous.
Klick your heels for me, please.
The issue of eating the fruit--it was not an apple--is based on sheer disobedience and hubris. God told Adam not to eat the fruit; Eve got the news secondhand, but still, she was expected to obey Adam as he was her husband.
Eve ate, in part, because the serpent told her she would become "godlike"=hubris.
However, regardless of the newness of the pair, they needed to refrain simply because they were told not to eat the fruit. One does not disobey the parent without consequences. On the other hand, most parents do not set temptation before toddlers.
Also, according to Jewish tradition, Eve was not the first woman: Lilith was. Adam had a bit more experience. And back to the first hand, Jews do not believe in original sin. Adam and Eve were punished and that affected future generations, but they do not believe that humans are born sinful. In fact, ancient Jews might not have seen the tale as "fact."
It is also interesting that Eve gets the biggest amount of blame, but shit didn't hit the fan and Yahweh didn't show up until Adam ate.
Of course they are all white. Absolutely no one from Africa and definitely no monkeys.