But that's not the direction we (SoA) took and we can't amend that posture, at this point, so I don't see the advantage in pressing it. NATO was formed for this very purpose so it seems perfectly legit that they should be taking this direction.

OK, it's clear you wouldn't fight for your country if a bloodthirsty criminal gang invaded it intending to erase its history, identity, and culture. Thank goodness the Ukrainian people have a lot more spine than you do. Ukraine did not ask for this war, but they are doing a pretty good job of defending their land. They deserve our support.

PS: I'm not glorifying war. I don't know where you get that. War is a dirty, nasty business, and should be avoided if possible. But when a genocidal maniac has your back against the wall, it's time to fight.

@Flyingsaucesir I was a Security Policeman in our Air Force so I assume you're addressing @Druvius? War is a nasty business and we can't avoid it by making constant exceptions because "This time it's to stop a maniac." Possibly we should consider an alternative way to deal with political leaders who turn into mass-murderers and apply that strategy to our own such criminals when they happen?

@rainmanjr Yes, I'm addressing Druvius here.

What "aternative way to deal with political leaders who turn into mass-murderers" do you have in mind?

"This is a senseless war the US played a huge role in provoking"... Would that be similar to the role we had in "provoking" Iraq to invade Kuwait? The USSR to invade Afghanistan? The role Britain and France had in "provoking" Germany's invasion of Poland? Since when is it justified to invade a smaller and weaker neighbor, whatever the supposed "provocation"?

It's clear to me, and should be to anyone with an unbiased mind, that dictators like Putin aren't "provoked" into invading their neighbors. They do, however, sieze on any excuse they can find or invent to justify their greed and power-lust to their followers.

The notion that Ukraine posed any threat whatsoever to Russia- other than being a democracy on their border which served as a contrast to Putin's dictatorship- is ludicrous. Russia spent a decade sponsoring separatists within Ukraine so they could then have an excuse to "rescue" their partisans via annexation and invasion. Pretending that Ukraine, a nation of 43 million and 230,000 square miles, could pose any threat to Russia's 143 million and 6.6 million square miles, is willfully making excuses for Russia's invasion.

@rainmanjr We will never be able to avoid war, as long as maniacs and dictators see it as a tool they can use to increase their own power. We can refuse to start wars, but we must also recognize that those who use force will never be deterred by anything but opposed force. Ultimately the only answer to a bully is standing up to them, since bullies will look at any negotiation as a sign of weakness. And in the end that's all Putin is- a bully.

@Flyingsaucesir Handing them over to INTERPOL and letting them be tried would be a good start. I think they committed a huge sin against America and that our nation will be demeaned and undermined by this sin unless we fully confront it. Therefore, a trial (as Pink Floyd demonstrated) is a necessary step toward healing.

@Paul4747 Bingo!

@rainmanjr I agree that George W. Bush should stand trial for his unnecessary war in Iraq. But how are you going to arrest Putin? You would have to invade Russia militarily. Not an option.

@Flyingsaucesir, @Paul4747 Putin's actions are not moral, no, but he can legit'ly point at SoA as having invaded a nation (which was of no or little threat to SoA) through the use of lies. Just because NATO now disagrees with Putin's actions has zero meaning for our own history. Tao teaches us that every ripple will play out as it must but it is created by a previous causation. I think war could, actually, end and am a disciple of John Lennon in that dream but it is predicated on many changes in human behavior and determination to end it. Sadly, we may not have that in us but our answers are all in The Tao Te Ching.

@Flyingsaucesir That would be INTERPOL's problem but our full submission to their authority, concerning the subject of international law, would be a big help on its own face.

@rainmanjr That's all very nice, but it does not address the situation in the here and now.

You think if we hand W over to interpol Putin will withdraw from Ukraine? You're living in a fantasy world.

@Flyingsaucesir Where did I say that? Exactly that, please.

@rainmanjr It sounded like that was what you were implying.

@Flyingsaucesir It's text so it made no sound at all but was also not what I wrote. Giving up Jr and his Dick would be an act of American contrition, a declaration of our own shame in the eyes of global justice, and the same would then be able to be said for handing Putin over. That would probably stop the war (if he were found guilty) but if he weren't handed over to INTERPOL, or allowed to be arrested by them, it would have no effect prosecution of Jr and his Dick.

@rainmanjr You're basically asking for Russia to hand over its own dictator. Short of revolution, that's not going to happen. (And it's no business of ours to foment revolution inside Russia or anywhere else, beyond VoA and CNN and NPR letting the Russian people hear real news and giving them the information to make real choices.)

I feel, since we do have a justice system not in control of the executive branch, that we are capable of dealing with our own. And at what point would it stop? The former president of Poland helped us in Iraq. Tony Blair helped us in Iraq. It's very hard to draw a line or even to tell who was actively deceiving people and who was deceived, or wanted to be deceived, with bad intelligence.

You can't say the same of Russia. Having no independent judiciary, no free press, no elections, we pretty much know Putin will never face a trial as things stand.

But this case is also pretty clear cut. Russia invaded a weaker neighbor, for no just cause. Their forces need to be expelled and that's all there is to it. Failing to meet this invasion would simply embolden Putin to grab other shiny things that he fancies. (I'm remembering how Czechoslovakia was supposedly the end of Hitler's territorial ambitions. I also recall how that worked out.)

But to be clear, I'm not even urging that the international system get a shot at Vlad. I am just supporting Ukraine in keeping and/or regaining, as the case may be, their sovereign borders. The people of Russia and the soldiers dying in Ukraine are victims of Putin, not of Ukraine's military.

If the cause be wrong, then the King himself will have a heavy reckoning to make, when all those arms and legs and heads chopped off in a battle shall join together at the latter day and cry all, "We died at such a place".... Now if these men do not die well, it will be a black matter for the king that led them to it." (Shakespeare, HenryV)

@Paul4747 The things we tell ourselves to hold onto our expectation of the world is amusing. If you wish to end war then we, as a species, must reimagine our world. Those things happen on the fly so it's not impossible but unlikely. The odds are not of my concern. Nor are the mechanics of what our action in handing over Jr and his Dick(s) bring for Putin and Russia. I've said twice, I think, that what matters is what that action would say and how much it will put us on a better course for global order. Or you can all do war and let those nukes fly. IDC because, to me, this is all a representational illusion.

@rainmanjr Not expectations- experience. As long as there's one group willing to war to get what they want, we as a species are not going to be able to abandon war. Unless your proposal is to roll over for anyone who's willing to attack us. Or, in microcosm, as long as one person is willing to use violence to get what they want, that person must be opposed by force. (Moral force only works if the aggressor is able to feel the shame of being exposed as an aggressor. Nonviolent protest worked against the UK; it stood no chance against Hitler or Stalin.)

@Paul4747 Then we really don't deserve to survive, in my opinion, so again..."Let 'em fly."

@Paul4747 Why yes, Kuwait did EVERYTHING in its considerable economic power to goad Saddam into military action. Thank you for disqualifying yourself as an educated commenter.

@Paul4747 No, the invasion of Iraq was far less justified than Russia's intervention in the US fomented Ukrainian Civil War. The US fomented this war, the rest of the world isn't buying it, and even US allies are jumping ship. This might be the stupidest American war yet, as it seems to be creating the multi-polar world Washington so fears.

I know the feeling. I was prompted to write this post by a comment made by an old friend. We generally don't talk politics...