Agnostic.com

82 8

Do you believe it's unethical to eat meat?

What if someone has tried to be vegetarian or vegan, under the supervision of a dietician and became ill; would that change your opinion?
One can struggle with producing an ethical argument for killing animals yet animals kill each other to survive, with no ethical judgement.
Please provide any opinions you wish, for or against these arguments.

Athena 8 June 17
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

82 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

1

No unless it has Goodyear markings.

7

My argument would be that large scale raising of animals for meat is a major contributor to global warming and so curtailing that or doing it differently would be a good thing.

I see no more ethical problem inherent in eating animal protein than any other carnivore or omnivore sees in it. I see an ethical problem in raising animals in crowded, stressful conditions and killing them in inhumane, painful ways however.

I try to buy my meat from known local sources who at least profess to raise those animals without cruelty or indifference.

I have a producer who will let one watch a harvesting as he calls it to insure your meat is killed clean local guy. however his prices have sky rocketed to keep up with everything so my fixed income needs some adjustment

7

There is a dichotomy, isn't there?

One the one hand, we don't want to cause pain and violence unnecessarily. On the other, life feeds on life and we want to live.

Some trot out the same tired arguments; we evolved eating meat and so we should continue. Nevermind the fact that we evolved the ability for pattern recognizing things incorrectly and thinking there were invisible people running things. Just because things went down that way before doesn't mean that it is the best way to continue. Isnt that why we're are all on this site? Hypocritical thinking much?

At the same time, the other side talks a fair share of nonsense, too. Going into the local co-op has all kinds of crunchy products making false claims and equating the word natural with good for you. Many of those tired claims descend to "if you hold this piece of dog shit, the force field is going to just flow into you and bring you peace." Ick and/or eww...

Facts: Animals feel pain. It takes more resources to make meat over plants. We can't produce B12 on our own along with some other nutrients.

My answer was to become an ovo-lacto vegetarian and I've maintained that for well over a decade. It's easy and it is the best I have come up with to recognize all the facts I'm aware of in the equation. I am still very active, still able to work out regularly, don't have any health problems, and try not to be the jerk they makes it everyone else's business about his being veggie. As I learn more, my diet may change.

Objectively moral? I don't know... I know it is moral for me to be this way right now. I take a different view of this kind of thing. Is it right for a child to shit in a diaper? I mean, that's where it is at that stage of development... It really isn't right or wrong; it is the best they have. Is it wrong for me to shit in a diaper? Maybe wrong isn't the right word - it's dirty and beneath me. That's how I feel about this issue (along with religion and lots of other things). There's no condescending here because I might be currently crapping in my own proverbial diaper on some other issue. We do the best we can and speak with curiosity and humility because we are fallible.

At the end of the day, people need to be about doing and being better. That is a value that I wish more people had.

Lots of poop in this posting... but then, isn't that how every meal truly ends?

Exellent closing statement.
You win!

Exactly my thoughts in every way!

Great answer. 🙂

7

I'm a vegetarian, and I think there are ethical questions around meat consumption that are worth exploring, but I don't judge anyone for their diet and don't consider this to be a black-and-white question. Although I find a vegetarian diet to be relatively easy to maintain, I know it doesn't work for everyone for various reasons, and it's a determination individuals need to make for themselves.

Good lord thank you ❤ (((( hugs ))))

5

‘Clean meat’ will be released with in a year. That should end the ethical dilemmas. Even PETA has lended it’s support.

Killing animals has nothing to do with ethics. Our treatment of animals does fall into ethics. We don’t tell a Lion he’s naughty for being a Lion, but lions aren’t farming gazelles either. Humans are omnivores by nature we need a little meat, otherwise we need supplementation. Now that does not excuse animal abuse and neglect which is s horrendous by product of commercial farming.
We can choose to only buy free range non abused animals or kill our own. We also need to scale back our consumption of meat. That’s where much of the problems lie.

Either way ‘clean meat’ is a game changer.

Sorry, we don't "need" a little meat. People like eating it, that's all.

It cost over 1 million dollars to product a little over 1/2 pound of so called clean meat in a lab so I think those guys are a long ways from putting us cattle ranchers out of bussiness.

@Carin actually we do NEED meat. You can’t survive as a vegan without supplement B12 which can not be gotten in a vegan diet naturally.

@darthfaja I would like to hear of a case in which a vegan died from lack of B12. Seems like while it makes sense theoretically, It doesn't seem to actually happen much at all. Maybe there are enough bugs in all that organic produce to supply it? It can also come from bacteria.

5

I have no ethical conflicts with including meat in a diet. I do, however, take issue with vegans deciding that their dogs and cats are also vegans, and so deny them meat in their diet.

Wow... This actually happens?

Shameful.

they decide for another creature who is obviously a hunter, cats. Dogs more of the omnivore variety but only out of necessity.

I've heard about it a couple times when I was taking my dog in to the pet store. Once a vendor stopped me and tried selling me some vegetarian dog food and I had to tell her "no" several times and remove it from the basket.

5

It can all be boiled down to this single question:

Is there such a thing as a humane slaughter?

There is also the issue of the concentration camps livestock live in. Imagine being a cow in Texas.

I am still haunted by a thumbnail image I saw recently which linked to an article. The photo was of a baby pig, stood on a muddy concrete floor looking up at the camera.

The article, which I didn't have the stomach to read, told the story of this little pig, which apparently tried to intervene in order save the life of another pig in an abattoir.

I truly believe, if every animal could articulate their suffering, that most of the world world go vegan overnight.

As a human, evolved and all that, it is definitely not ethical to ‘murder’ to fill ones stomach, especially when there are so many other things to eat.

5

My background involves raising domesticated animals for human consumption, leather, fish food, animal feed and countless products that most people don't even know are in the food they consume or ate used to grow the "organic" produce they buy. But, I can promise you, if everyone were to visit a slaughter house, 90% of the people would come out as vegetarians. At least until the memory fades. I do get peterbed with self righteous vegans who have never touched a horse, a steer, or a chicken, yet have outlandish and uninformed, very strong opinions. Veganism without background knowledge or experience is no better than religion. Anthropormizing a beast of burden is easy to do if you've not worked with them. It's a religion of a different brand. I much prefer working to make animals healthy and well. What happens afterwards disturbs me greatly. But,,I'm not a vegan. If I. had more time to shop, chop, and come up with dishes I would be. I was for a couple of years when I had a job with regular hours but it took an enormous amount of time for meal prep. Its probably easier now.

5

Unethical no, less ethical for me, yes. Some people can't afford to avoid eat meat. In the US some cities don't have access to fresh food, so eating meat and processed foods is not only the most affordable way. It may be the only thing they have to choose from. I'm talking about typically poorer neighborhoods without access to even a grocery store or Walmart. I, on the other hand, can get fresh food, I'm a vegan most of the time (I can't expect to be a Vegan in many of the countries I travel to....) But I'm an unethical vegan because I still own leather shoes and belt, silk pillow case, etc. but will make an effort in the future to buy cruelty free products. Is being vegan better for the environment, yes. Can one live in a healthy manner without meat? Yes, most can do that. One shouldn't ignore the evolutionary effect protein had on development of humans and that meat played a part in that. Mainly because protein was available when farming wasn't (in colder areas). Now we have the opposite, we have too much access to meat and it's killing us with high blood pressure, diabetes, stroke, heart disease, etc. I'm too tired to continue tonight, I apologize for my grammar and spelling, I need rest....

4

I think it is unethical. It's easy to be veggie and healthy. I'm an active person and have had no issues at all.

If you need resources, hit me up.

4

No but I find it unethical to waste food, be that unpopular cuts of meat or imperfectly shaped vegetables!

Pete66 Level 6 June 18, 2018
4

Not personally. It’s unethical to cause more suffering than you have to, unethical to patronize factory farmed meat sources but its equally unethical to patronize large scale vegetable farming. Animals live in the fields that get raked over and harvesting machines kill ground nesting birds, varmits of all types, deer lying in the field etc. Even if you shop at the farmers market those farmers had to keep pests in check to make sure those salad ingredients got to you. Life eats life and nothing in the wild comes to a peaceful end or dies of old age. There’s no way to harvest plants or animals large scale without harming a lot of both. Ideally I’d like to operate my own garden, keep chickens for eggs, goats for cheese, go fishing weekly and hunt wild game once or twice a year. That would be my ideal ethical diet to minimize the amount of death I was causing and take responsibility for it when I do. The bioavailability of protein in vegetables is significantly less than that of meat and I don’t feel healthy without some portion of animal protein. I could get by with that mostly coming from eggs probably but I don’t think we’re so different from other predatory animals that I would feel terrible about participating in the food chain as long as I wasn’t being wasteful. And if a predator eats me the first time I try to go out hunting, fair play lol.

I really hate factory farms and the damage they do to all involved.

4

Humans are omnivores and no matter how you slice it, something must die for us to survive. We need protein and meat is a primary source. A hundred years ago an ethical argument about meat was not a consideration, in a hundred years from now will there be an ethical argument about plant life and their right to live and thrive?

The question of ethics is a personal one and should not be imposed on others. In my opinion we should focus on the humane treatment of animals, overconsumption, and waste.

Betty Level 8 June 18, 2018

Actually, meat is a secondary source of protein. The primary source is the vegetation consumed by herbivores. If you're eating grilled eagle or tiger ribs, then it would be a tertiary source, but carnivore meat is generally a bit too gamey for human tastes.

A previous posting of mine about Lion Fish showed an ethical reason for eating some animal life. However, the animals that are the main part of our diet eat a lot of plants so one is actually consuming more plant life and polluting the environment more by eating meat. There is also something called "sentiency". Plants are not sentient to the level of animals and they are not tortured in their raising. It has been proven that many, many more could be fed if meat were eliminated. In a very early posting of mine I mentioned eating is a sensuous experience (appeals to all the senses). I, for one, do not want a being to suffer for my sensuous pleasure. I wonder how many dedicated meat eaters actually look at the costs of this form of diet?

@JackPedigo

I agree, finding less harmful ways to sustain ourselves would be preferable. The farming practices are atrocious and should be changed. Access to fruit and vegetables for the lower income should be easier (too many processed food and fillers). Then we have the problem with palm oil and all the food and products that include it. The damage to the ecosystem, animals, and insect life is heartbreaking. Big business needs to come on board to help make a difference.

With parents working outside of the home just to make ends meet, giving up the convenience of processed and packaged foods is a hardship for many. The food industry would need to change and the government should be encouraging it if not mandating it.

As for animals being sentient...there was a time when they weren't and who knows what will be discovered about plant life and insect life in the future. 🙂

100 years ago the USA was not first world ;no social programs.

@JackPedigo very true, the animals we consume are vegetarian. There are more vegetarians than people who live in the US. Living organisms feed off living organisms, we are the only species of animal that cooks our food.

Meat is not the primary source of protein. Everything has proteins, meat is a complete protein. But so is beans and rice....

4

Humans do not have the complete enzymes to break down meat, beef has to rot out of your system. Humans do not have a digestive track that is like those of the carnivore species. Human digestive tract is more for the slow processing of plant based foods, ie... proteins. Lastly, Humans do not have true canine teeh. True canine are long, round, and pointed proportionently to other teeth.

I lived vegetarian for something like 10 years, easy. Hardly ever became ill. I felt great. Vegetarianism was a Great experience that became something almost like a philosophical experience.

I do believe it is a matter of ethics knowing the facts of how animals are treated and the damage that is done to the Environment.

[m.huffpost.com]

However I do not judge.

Etre Level 7 June 18, 2018

It sounds like you do judge; you judge yourself as we all should.

I appreciate your answer, but it is not scientifically correct. The human digestive tract is fully capable of breaking down meat.

@Athena
Beef rots for three days, and you do not have complete enzymes to break down the meat. Even dr. Oz stated this on one of his shows. Heard these same statements from Doctors and Nutritionists. Thats how I learned. Living organisms feed off living organisms, we are the only species of animal that cooks our food. Ask any person that adheres to a plant based diet how they feel as compared to consuming animal based protien. Its pretty simple, think about how plants photosynthesize the suns energy as fuel for its existence. Lots of data and science covering this topic, I welcome the debate.

Secondly its well known our ancestors did not consume meat. Most people are conditioned, and most conditioned people cannot see beyond what it is that they do not know.

Cognitive Disonance

@JackPedigo
Maybe in the sense that my diet is not completely vegetarian anymore, and I feel Guilty. And I know that I am not as happy.

@Athena
So you lift weights, my brother just called, he lifts 545lb at 165, he is carnivore but also knows several world class lifters who are vegetarian. Funny thing his wife's name is Atina, named after Athena, her mother derived the name in context of and after.

@Etre
Dr. Oz is not someone who has respect among the medical community due to the propaganda in his talk show. In the past years he has been using scare tactics to promote products that benefit him financially.

There are differing opinions about whether we should eat meat, however when you look at the science the inability to digest meat is due to a poor microbial environment in the gut, or other factors related to one's health, not because humans can't digest it. Our enzymatic make up is designed for it.

The consumption of meat has been a necessary part of our evolution as it promoted higher encephalization and increased physical growth. The question is, are the benefits (health and otherwise) of eating meat greater than the undesirable cost, multitude of environmental burdens in particular, of producing it? For the answer to that question, don't ask Dr. Oz.

@Athena i agree with you in reference to Dr. Oz, i became a vegetarian long before I heard Dr. Oz make those statements. Yes I am aware of his methods. He is not the only Doctor and He was not the first. I am only sharing this with you because I lived it. The first humans that existed did not consume meat acording to the Anthropological record. Also if you look at all animals who consume meat, their digestive track is not winding. Its more of an in out kinda thing. Colon cancer is the 3rd most common cancer. All scientific data that I have seen from various institutes and doctors state that its enzymes or lack there of, not guteral fawna or probiotics. I eat yogurt on a daily basis. All, everyone of our closest relatives are vegetarian, chimpanzees eat less than .5 % meat for an entire year. As do other hominins.

I not only lived as a vegetarian, I studied, I am quite erudite. Living organisms feed off living organisms, we are the only species of animal that cooks our food. All other animals, except scavengers, eat living food whether it be fresh kill or herbal treats. Its cells, the food, are alive.... when we cook, we are eating dead flesh, dead cells, no life. Think. The studies are there, find them. I am assuming you are a biologist.

@Etre
The enzymes are not there for those who have an inferior microbial and genetically deficient gut environment. I have researched and studied this already, and the science tells us that we would not have evolved to the capacity of our current existence, had we not, as a species, eaten meat.
I trust you are well read, as you state, and it's always great to have discussions with people who are passionate about topics, and care to do research. However, in this case, the science in favour of enzymatic competency in humans to digest meat, is significant.

And, the oldest people in the world eat meat. They like to tell us so too.

"Mabel, what's your secret to living to age 117? "

"Bacon and grits. Never go a day without 'em."

@Athena any person who has studied biology understands the symbiotic relationship within an environment. Macrocosmically, Microcosmically. Humans adapt and evolve. The article in my original post points out how those original theories are being challenged. Yes our first hominin ancesters were vegetarian, and yes the science states the protein dence meat fuel the brain to grow.

Being an academically minded human who spent years in research, i must point out that the core of what we are jousting about is theory. And that is why the original anthropological theories are being debated, they do not know for a "Fact", that meat consumption is what advanced the human species. They don't know in fact if it was the protein dense meat that grew the brain.

And as for probiotic vrs enzymes, well.... i am not trying to win the argument, but I can tell you that here in the states the meat producing companies paid for there scientific data and fed it to the population here, with its hormones, antibiotics, and depression. And I have never been told nor learned it was stomach bacteria, or lack there , that failed humans in the digestive processing of meat. Enzymes break down food, gut bacteria support the enzymes.

[blog.renewlife.com]

4

The only thing "unethical" about eating meat is when one tries to influence others not to do so.

4

I only eat fish because that is the only meat that doesn't give me a splitting headache. I'm for the ethical treatment of animals, even food animals. No cruel factory farms, inhumane sheep shearing, or pet mills.

Meanwhile the cattle and animal industries are polluting the world, taking up the water, bringing toxic chemicals and drugs into the environment. Insects have as much protein as beef, but don't pollute, or squander resources, are raised quickly, and don't need pesticides.

Could insects be the wonder food of the future? [bbc.com] via @BBC_Future

is a good idea. it only take getting use to the idea. it is how many displaced people survive

@squiggy_70 Roasted and deep-fried insects and grubs are sold everywhere in Thailand, and they're delicious.

For squeamish Americans, insects and grubs can be ground into powder and reformed into self-sustaining protein burgers, soups, whatever.

@birdingnut
I'm looking forward to insect farming developments in North America. Seems like a great solution to providing additional protein sources with necessary branch chain amino acids now only found in red meat.

4

NO. We are biologically hunters and gatherers.

4

I like meat, I like beef. I have no simpathy for those criticizing religion and church yet... try to impose their eating habits on others. Whatever you decide to eat or god to follow is not of my concern. I am not your cook, your congregation in need of leadership or your priest in any shape of form.

4

I believe they are in the food chain for the purpose of supplying protein for brain development. You may quarry with: there are other sources of protein, but I believe meat has a different chemical makeup promoting greater growth.

I agree that meat has a different chemical make up. Right now there are two programs in the works (that I know of) to help promote environmentally friendly and "ethical" productions of high protein sources. One is to produce meat artificially by harvesting the DNA of animals currently being killed for food (which will preserve the identical chemical compounds).

The second is the farming of insects, which is already being done in other countries. Insects thrive in and enjoy close quarters and would take up much less room. Harvesting and preparation can happen at a very low cost. I will need to do more research (as I haven't done that much) to learn about the difference in BCAA differences between these insects and red meat.

4

I don't eat meat. I also don't think it is unethical to eat meat. The important aspect here, I feel, is the manner in which animals are farmed and the barbarity of live exports. It is not necessary to eat meat so perhaps more attention should be given to the nature of its production. If that is undertaken in unethical practice, then boycott that producer. It is only by constant consumer pressure that free-range instead of cage laid eggs are now readily available.

4

“Auschwitz begins wherever someone looks at a slaughterhouse and thinks: they’re only animals.”

Theodor W. Adorno

I recommend reading Eternal Treblinka: Our Treatment of Animals and the Holocaust by Charles Patterson.

3

No, even deer and other assumed "vegetarians" eat meat, carrion.
The REAL problem is there are just too damned many people on this earth. Period.
In order to feed the world thoroughly and continue expanding the already overpopulated planet, crops take up space, destroy forests and require pesticide use.

3

I have been Vegan for many,many yrs.because I don't want to contribute to animal torture and murder. There are many,many healthy protein choices. Dead,rotting animals are not something that I crave. My blood tests are always absolutely perfect.My blood pressure is perfect,my weight is perfect and I have no health issues at all.

3

Do some research and you will see that animal agriculture is going to be the death of us all; and rightfully so.

3

Some people do have problems with an all vegetarian diet and things are different for them. Yes we are animals but we are animals that can have ethics and can shap our own destiny so because others do it is absolutely no excuse. I do not struggle in producing an ethical argument for killing animals. It is an obvious fact for anyone with the courage to look at the environmental, moral and personal costs.

The people who have problems with an all vegetarian diet are there own problem. They do not eat right, mostly getting enough proteins... that is key for vegan an vegetarians, getting complete proteins. My focus was proteins, vitamins A,D,K, omega fatty acids and electrolytes as well as staying hydrated. Several vegetarians think just eat what ever as long as its not meat to get the lable. I guess its a badge of honor.

@Etre I hear this comment over and over. Billions of people are/have been vegetarian with no negative effects. Americans get way too much protein and it seems protein is all they think about. Of course everyone always forget about all the chemicals, antibiotics, growth hormones, herbicides, pesticides and many more that goes into meat production. Most people become vegetarian because they discover all the personal health issues with meat especially beef!

@JackPedigo 100% agree, i was just saying as a vegetarian you kind of need to focus on proteins a bit. I have seen several vegetarians who turned ghostly white from not eating properly. Not the color of the pale skinned vegans, but different. I heard about a local young guy here declares vegetarian, eats mostly chips and carb junk... im like he won't last long.

Yes I agree with you American diet is way over on protein. with current fda stating males need 35gm 55 to 60 if working out, female like 25gm and 32 to 35 if wrking out. I have seen data that states those numbers should be much lower but the industry keeps those numbers up for consumption rates ie profits. A celebrity chef came to town and cooked a vegan meal for all. In his act he also stated that actual protein intake can be much lower than fda mandates.

3

Man creates ethics. So I would suppose it both is and isn't. There's some strong arguments on both sides nothing's convinced me to stop eating meat though.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:109699
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.