I’m trying not to read too much into that.....

I’m gently nudging everyone back toward it,....

Hi azzow, I’m quite specifically asking about Trump supporters, and their image of themselves,...... for the purposes of this thread, im not interested in Trump.

Thanks for your response BD66. My question was quite specifically about Trump’s supporters and their self image. You, and how you perceive yourself.

I’m interested to note that every response so far has been either to talk about Trump, his policies, his press or his opposition. Nobody has yet talked about themselves.

I’m lookimg for an honest, introspective response. As a Trump supporter, I’m looking for you to challenge yourself on it, as all good skeptics should. Pic something bad that he has done, something not nice. There’s lots obviously,..... child separation in detention camps, homosexual rights roll backs, molestation and misogynistic abuse ‘grab em by the p@ssy’, nepotism, Trump uni, pervertedly walking in on Models getting changed at his beauty pageants,..... pick something that you genuinely think is bad, and the behaviour of a bad, not nice man. Then think about how your support of him, facilitates that harm. How your support of him enables that harm. Think about how that therefore makes you complicit in that harm.

Now very specifically, explain to me how you maintain your own self image as that of a nice person.

Politicians are scumbags, Trump is certainly one as well. We'll go through your little exercise:

child separation in detention camps - Was going on long before Trump got into office. DCFS and a dysfunctional family law system were doing this for decades before Trump was ever elected President.

homosexual rights roll backs - I'm not aware of a specific example of this. If you are talking about putting a halt to LGBT as a protected class, there are too many protected classes already. I was once a manager at Cisco Systems, managing 18 people at the time of a layoff. I had to rank all 18 of my direct reports from top to bottom, and I asked my manager if I could tell the top-ranked employees they had nothing to worry about. He told me to do that. Then when the layoff list came back from HR, many of the people I had told they had nothing to worry about were on the layoff list. Long story, but it turned out there were not enough white and Asian males under the age of 40 on the layoff list, so they were added because women, non-Asian minorities, and employees over 40 were all protected.

molestation and misogynistic abuse - Have you ever heard of Fiddle and Faddle, Mary Joe Kopechne, Juanita Broaddrick. Paula Jones, Kathleen Willey. Politicians are scumbags. Why do you get all spun up over Trump, but not JFK, Ted Kennedy, or Bill Clinton? I'd put Trump in about the same moral class as those other three.

Nepotism - Are you aware of what goes on in Democratic controlled cities like Chicago, IL?

Pervertedly walking in on Models getting changed at his beauty pageants - I'd put this on the same level as putting a cigar in the vagina of a summer intern in the Oval office.

On the other hand, Jimmy Carter was a fine decent human being, but he was a complete disaster as President. If I had to choose between a competent scumbag like Bill Clinton or Donald Trump vs. an incompetent morally pure individual like Carter, I'll take the competent scumbag.

Thank you. Although I don’t wish to block anyone. I’m a passionate advicate of free speech, no matter how much I may disagree with the content. I’ll only use the block facility if I encounter rudeness.

@Linecaughtonly I strongly agree with you. I've blocked two people on FB who stalked me IRL, no blocks here so far and I doubt I ever will.

I have a few friends, including three educated women who are Trump supporters. I haven't touched base with one of those women in over a year, so I'm not sure how she feels about most of his administration.

@educatedredneck That's because you're blind to your male privilege. The moment some guy becomes lewd, crude, or rude, I hit the "block" button, to remove that person from any possible dating or friendship consideration. I even block men I see being rude to other women. I don't want to know them.

@birdingnut and you're making assumptions about me. If you interpret that as being rude so be it, but I didn't say anything about blocking people for rudeness or especially lewdness.

I'd consider blocking someone who was lewd to me. One of the two I've blocked is a gay man who stalked me for a long time. I didn't even know it was him sending me porn for over 2 years. A few people have hit on me, one woman even sent me a boob shot but chilled when I didn't flirt back so I didn't block her. Consistent lewdness would definitely be consideration for blocking.

I didn't say anything about your decisions to block people, my comment was aimed at linecaughtonly which is why I tagged him.

Frustratingly, I don’t think Sam Harris got any kind of insightful response from Adams there. In a nutshell, it seems to me that ultimately Harris got Adams to concede as far as “yeh,..... I know he’s a dick, but he gets stuff done that I want done”.

My question above, re-framed for Adams in the context of Harris’s debate would be; “we agree that his not being a nice person causes suffering and hurt as an accepted part of his methodology. So as a supporter, indeed advocate and fascilitator of that method, and therefore of that suffering and harm, do you feel a conflict internally that makes you question whether you are a nice person or not?”

That’s what I’m askimg here. I’m not interested in trump, I’m intetested in the Trump supporter’s view of themself.

Frustratingly, I don’t think Sam Harris got any kind of insightful response from Adams there. In a nutshell, it seems to me that ultimately Harris got Adams to concede as far as “yeh,..... I know he’s a dick, but he gets stuff done that I want done”.

My question above, re-framed for Adams in the context of Harris’s debate would be; “we agree that his not being a nice person causes suffering and hurt as an accepted part of his methodology. So as a supporter, indeed advocate and fascilitator of that method, and therefore of that suffering and harm, do you feel a conflict internally that makes you question whether you are a nice person or not?”

That’s what I’m askimg here. I’m not interested in trump, I’m intetested in the Trump supporter’s view of themself.

Hi Spike! Thanks for your response. My question wasn’t asking about what anyone thinks of Trump though, his political efficacy or indeed whether he is nice or not. I’m interested in you,.... and how you square your support of him, his policies and words with your notion of yourself as ‘nice’.

Whilst it’s easy to brand others as ‘not nice’, I think we all like to think of ourselves as ‘nice’ people. If you support, aid, or encourage someone who’s actions actively hurt others, or who’s actions are indeed ‘not nice’ it seems to me that you become complicit in those actions, complicit in that hurt. My interest is in how you rationalise that in your own mind so as to maintain your own nice self image.

Again, I am aware of the leading nature of my question, but I feel that it is a fair question nontheless.

@Linecaughtonly Your question was indeed a fair one. In all fairness, I do not nor ever have for the most part considered myself to be a nice person. It would be relatively safe to say that most human beings would generally like to consider themselves good, and I contend that is not usually the case but rather we have a mixture of good and evil tendencies, some may have more of the good in them while others no so good. I try my best to be a positive force in society, but I have my drawbacks just like anyone else, plenty of them. For instance- I give to those in more need than myself when it's financially possible for me to do so, I would lend a hand to those who could use some help, I could go on but I think you get the idea. On the flip side, I am also prone to what some would consider negative attributes such as I support a capitalist society, I do not care to spare feelings, and I own guns. Summed up, I am neither a nice good or evil person, but a mixture of every trait. While having some obvious negative character traits, I could find some good in Trump as well, so it is not difficult for me to identify with such a man as we share some of the same traits. Again, I contend that a good majority of human beings are not exactly nice, as every human possesses the ability to be both good and evil, but equally so not many out there are or would be willing to acknowledge that much let alone accept it. To answer your question, no, I am not a nice person, not in the least. I do however try to be fair with everyone and make an attempt to understand other point of views, and thus I strike a balance between good and evil.

I think that’s unfair. I’ve not posted my question to just bash em, and I’m hoping to keep the thread fair and evidence based. But quite specifically I’ve asked about their own ‘self image’, because that, to me is an interesting place where significant cognitive dissonance must be hiding.

@Linecaughtonly Ok, I do understand what you are asking for but what I have said is what I have experienced. Greed and money is kind in their world.

@Jolanta with the greatest of respect, and accepting that you and I are essentially on the same side of this fence, when you base an opinion upon your subjective ‘own experience’, you are almost certain to be objectively wrong.

Just because that dog is shaggy, it doesn’t mean that all dogs are shaggy,..... or even that shagginess is purely a dog thing!

But more than that,...... even if you’re right, & all Trump supporters worship at the greed alter,,..... if they don’t perceive themselves as such, then all you do by labelling them so is start a fruitless argument.