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Should you be fully able to defend your atheism/ agnosticism ?

Its been my experience, the apathetic atheist/agnostics, are the ones who are subject to revert back to theism. they fall prey to cultural bullies and bad reasoning (aka emotional reasoning ) . I hope that all agnostics and atheist continue to educate them selves to a point they understand gods are man made.

MichaelSpinler 8 Jan 8

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5

I shouldn't have to.
I should be left alone in my own beliefs as I do to others and their beliefs.

true, but we don't live in an ideal world. the religious make it their mission to indoctrinate everyone. the atheist i have seen over the years, that were apathetic about this topic, were the ones who reverted back to a religion. because they did not bother to keep educating themselves on the reasons theism is idiotic, and a lie. they fell prey to emotional extortion.

@MichaelSpinler I look at it this way, I do my thing, you do your thing and never the two paths shall cross.

thats nice, i am not the one knocking on doors. tell the god nutters that, and see if they agree.

@MichaelSpinler next time they knock on my door will do, lol

@Airmid basically this comes to mind...

@MichaelSpinler just smile and tell them "I am not responsible for your beliefs" and leave it at that.

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Why should you need to defend what ever you believe in, whether its being a Christian, Muslim, Buddist, atheist or just on the fence? Don't nearly all religions/beliefs say love thy neighbour or do no harm. Just don't preach to me that I'm wrong and you're right and I'll respect that we don't agree but I won't hold it against you.

for a wide variety of reasons, starting with standards of accepting things based on evidence. critical thinking, scientific method, etc. which is why an atheist should be able to defend their position, so they don't get caught up in the emotional reasoning of a god believer, and their brain washed ideas. religion does not have a live and let live standard. they interfere in the election process. and in our kids education, and making of laws. , if you identify as a christian , muslim etc, you get all of the baggage that com,es with it.

2

I don't think I missed the point. I am surprised to read that someone has fears that if they can't defend their deepest beliefs they might revert or be in danger of indoctrination to another belief system. No way. I am who I am. It is something I cannot change. My path might have been smoother at times if I could simply have accepted something that is to me unbelievable and false at all levels.

hmmm. you may have. i don't fear reversion for myself, i am a well versed anti theist. who has spent years reading and watching everything from famous atheist, i also am an avid science buff.
i have seen apathetic atheist, revert back over the years, and its always been the same type of atheist, the ones who didnt read anything from the famous atheist, knew nothing about the arguments atheist give , as to why religion is poison and not true. in every case they gave me an emotional and or peer pressure or family, excuse for their reversion, or first time in a religion or god belief.

no, what i am saying, is that over the years the people that have reverted back to religion, did not study, they did not care about the arguments, or did they see the value of understanding religion. so by there own apathy, were pressured by friends and family back into religion.

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I see no reason to defend my atheist/agnostic position in any way.

i don't mean for debate purpose, but from a position of being stable in your own nonbelief. to the point you are well armed against any religious indoctrination tactics.

@MichaelSpinler

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There's nothing to defend. Literally! I see no point in being defensive about it or continually seeking reinforcement for it. It's the default position, and no one has yet offered up anything to move the burden of proof. Peer pressure to believe isn't going to make the Sky Daddy real.

its not for debate purpose, its for the purpose, of not reverting back to a religion.

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I don't know... been thru a lot because I had lived a lot and nothing pulls me or push me to a concept of god or religion. I think that option was sealed off on my teens to last until I die. To me was not a phase of rebellion it was an enlightenment in shades of dark and still solid in me.

thats great, but you reasoned your way out, and were not raised as an atheist or in a non religious house hold. those tend to be the ones who get caught up in the theist guilt and indoctrination junk.

@MichaelSpinler Yep brother... when something goes wrong... they tell them and that is why it happened to you for abandoning faith... he, he, ha, I went thru a possible ending in death experience and my wife told me... after that and you still not believe in god.... my answer was simply yes, still not believe.

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I'll tell you what I think. From my experience religionists, in the face of confident, thoughtful atheists, retreat and withdraw as fast as their theological legs can carry them. There are exceptions. But espousing religionists are a bit like a virus: they look for weakness and exploit it. They will try to spread it if they find a weakened or vulnerable host. Confronted by direct very forward non believers they usually know better and demure. A couple of up-front arguments and they have somewhere else they need to be. See that with door knocking evangelists if you tell them straight. Mention a bit of history, theology, or an opinion about religious practise, and the discussion doesn't last long. I repeat, they look for vulnerable people. The analogy of religion as a virus is quite apt, in my view.

sounds like you are not the one i have to worry about, and would likely have fun listening to
i feel like a broken record at this point saying this, but its the apathetic atheist, and did not escape a religion atheist, that seam to be lacking the ammo to combat the religious, like you ststed they look for weakness, and exploit it. thats why i posted this, to help atheist that don't see the value, of learning the arguments and alike, so they don't become victims of . indoctrination, emotional reasoning and pear pressure.

@MichaelSpinler No sir, I definitely do not fall into the category of apathetic atheist. Obviously you don't either. Being more direct with religionists is part of atheist movement now, and they don't like it too much. Better get used to it.

1

I think there are largely two groups of atheist origins: (1) those who never had a belief in God and subsequently never really thought about the reasons for and against belief, and (2) those who started out with religion and over time came to a position of non-theism. Most of the Christians who claim to have converted from atheism to Christianity belong to the first group, but often they weren't atheists in the sense most of us think of atheism. When you discuss it with them, what they usually mean by "atheist" is someone who never even thought about religion for most of their life. In the strictest sense they're not wrong, but I feel it's disingenuous to call it atheism when they never seriously considered the proposition — because that's what they're pitting their experience against, conflating the two types of atheistic perspectives. The second group is, by contrast, already highly knowledgeable of theistic claims, the arguments for faith, etc., and have thought hard about the validity of belief, coming to the conclusion that the lack of evidence makes belief in the proposition unjustified. There are, of course, exceptions to people in each group, with some never-religious folks studying the subject at great length, and some formerly religious folks never thinking about why their faith faded. But, that said, I think you're right that the more apathetic have less resolve and are much more likely to fall victim to theistic claims and logical fallacies used in their support.

i see its not just our hair style and beard we agree on lmao. yes thats my whole point, i want atheist to take the time to learn, so they won't fall prey to the emotional extortion and bad logic, that these god botherers pull on everyone.

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I think most atheists won't be intimidated-especially on this site.

well not here, right, i am talking in there lives in general, we are outnumbered. and most live in religious countries. the more you are educated the better.

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I have no particular desire to defend myself. I am simply what I am and I know I can't change the beliefs of religious evangelicals. I do my best to try to keep them from hurting me and others. I speak out, I march, I sign petitions and contribute money to try to hinder the horrible things they are trying to inflict upon us. I don't waste time defending my own "religious" beliefs, beliefs which I am entirely comfortable. They are mine and they are private [as is my sex life]. No one's business but my own.

ok but i think you missed the point, its not to change their minds, its to keep from being indoctrinated through emotional reasoning. i find when an atheist can fully defend their position with reason and being educated in these religious cult methods, the chances of them reverting back into a cult to be reduced.

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The psychosis that the religious people have often turns to violent conflict. They justify what they do in harmful ways as god's work. I often think of the Witch trials Salem often comes up, facts are people all over were tried for being witches. So even though most of the people being convicted were under the influence of ergot. What were their rights I think they fell off the desk with the non-believers and doubters rights into the incinerator.

well said. though these days the believers have taken a different approach, thanks to secular laws. they send lobbyist to our government and do it behind closed doors, . the point i was trying to make though was to educate yourself as an atheist all you can. its not enough to just be an atheist. if you don't have great reasons for being one, you could revert back, as i have seen over the years, many apathetic, not well read atheist, have returned to religion , from being bullied, or not feeling like they are part of a community.

@MichaelSpinler I see, don't think I will ever have tat problem seeing I have been doubting since I was very young. It would take some concrete evidence then I would doubt that as well.

its been my experience. we do have that problem. apathetic atheist, that never watched a debate, or read a hitchens book, if you don't arm yourself with tools to use against indoctrination, you could revert, or convert. not all atheist came from a theistic back round ( lucky bastards) lol so some have been converted by peer pressures and indoctrination tactics. call me greedy, buy we are low in numbers, and i want as many on my team as we can get.

1

What do I need to Defend?
I exist and vote behind a black curtain
no matter what you perceive; you will never fully understand my heart.

mzee Level 7 Jan 8, 2018

to defend your own position in your mind, to the point you are immune to indoctrination tactics.

0

Michael Spinler: You seem to think I missed the point, but I really am baffled by you. If someone "reverts' to theism, so what? If they can live happily and contentedly and be a Christian or something else, so what? I may personally not be able to suspend disbelief enough to swallow the credo and belief system of Christians or other organized religions, but if someone is able to do that and live a good and productive life without hurting others, to pass through life with grace, why do you think we should interfere? To me, religion/lspirituality is personal. I think perhaps you should worry about yourself. In my opinion, the benign belief systems of others is none of your business.

I think there are far more serious issues today that should concern us rather than someone "reverting" to theism. How about the digusting political situation in the United States? The continuing assault on our environment, the pending loss of our freedoms. Please.

because all of the things you just said in the last part, are all tied to religion and god belief, the less people we have being counted as theist, the less they are the majority, and we might be able to start getting some of those things fixed. thats why i do care that we keep all the atheist in our camp, and educate them on why it is important to be skeptical, and critical thinkers. all of this plays into the sciences, the environment, our freedom, etc.

@MichaelSpinler I simply don't agree with you.

dont. you refuted yourself, the anti science problem and environment is a direct result from religion. it is my business, and my planet, and you should care about what other people belief, it hurts us all.

@MichaelSpinler I do care that people are so ignorant, but I don't believe anything I could say would change those people. Believe me I have tried. They suspend disbelief in a way I can't. After all that has happened, 45's core still support him. It has nothing to do with how secure I am in my own beliefs or if I can defend them. I simply don't agree with your original statement that we need to educate ourselves in order to defend our beliefs. If someone is open to discussion [and most of those who are theists aren't], I am perfectly willing to sit down with them and explain my own beliefs.and also why I can't accept theirs. Enough, Michael, you are being very tedious. I am now asking you to leave me alone.

umm this is my post, here is a idea, leave me alone, and you still don't get the point. i am tired of explaining it to you.

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I found interesting that you commented that gods are man made. That is my favorite topic and subject for study.

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I know it’s mentioned around here a lot, but it’s not up to us to disprove them. We’re asserting nothing, they are. And if they begin to assert, it had better consist of far more than whipping out ‘their book.’

Varn Level 8 Jan 10, 2018

i am not talking about for the god believers benefit, but for yours.

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I don’t think anyone should be required to to justify their lack of belief. But people who HAVE a reason, even if they aren’t articulate about it, are probably more likely to stick with their (lack of) belief. I personally believe in reason, science, logic and evidence. My positive belief in those things tells me that there is no god. My ex, on the other hand, called himself an atheist because he didn’t believe in anything. But when life got hard and he wanted help from religious folks, he started going to church because it served his purpose.

your ex , is why i posted this, its for the benefit of the atheist, not the theist.

0

No. Your beliefs are your own and my beliefs are my own. You are not my judge and I am not your judge. Freedom to believe is just that simple. If no one is being hurt in any way, then we have nothing to resolve between us. I don't need your support and you don't need mine. Remember the Desdirata: You do your thing and I do my thing. If we should meet in the process then that is beautiful.

atheist lack belief, i don't have a belief, and the god belief is harming every believer whether they know it or not. but that was not the reason behind the question.

@MichaelSpinler no defense necessary even for no belief. We are are free to be as we are without question. At some level if the god belief is harmful, the god believer will find that out on their own, as is their right. When god belief harms then we may a duty to push back, but even that is a matter of choice left to free will.

i am sorry you are not aware of the harm it causes. perhaps this will help.
Religion has ever been anti-human, anti-woman, anti-life, anti-peace, anti-reason and anti-science. The god idea has been detrimental not only to humankind but to the earth. It is time now for reason, education and science to take over.
Madalyn Murray O'Hair

@MichaelSpinler I have no disagreement with you there, however religious freedom is a basic right for all,of us. The damage is indeed great. I am not sure that will ever change. There are more them than there are of us. They are better organized, having a common belief system which even Sol Alinski suggests is a core organizing tool. We may not be able to stop them, but we don't have to join them. Of course, the real danger is that they may feel the need to come after us. This has happened before.

true its rights for us all, yet they are the ones not alowing rights of others, and subverting the truth about many things, there right to swing their arm, stops at my nose.
as far as we are out numbered, sure, but not like youi may think, if you combine the atheist/ agnostics, non religious, muslims hindu. etc. christians are just over 50%. the tide is turning as well. the under 30 age group is mostly non religious. . we see iceland , greenland, sweden, and other countries that have become vastly nonreligious. don't confuse the outspoken evangelic with the majority of people here in the states, they are well funded, and organised, this is true. but they are not the majority ,

0

Nope!

then let me know what religion you return to.

@MichaelSpinler From the day I was born I thought it was a retarded concept and never for a single second believed any of it. Then again it's not shoved down our throats as much in England! lol

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I do think you should. Im a bit lacking myself, due to falling under number 1 in resserts comment, but ive got the basic stuff and honestly, if i need to defend myself past "i see no evidence for one and never have" i generally don't bother lol.

well thats because they have no evidence, and likely never will, the tactics they use, and the way they manipulate, using emotional extortion and other brain washing, aka cult indoctrination tactics. the people i have seen return to christianity, did not do it because there was some new evidence, it was always emotional reasoning, and pear pressure.

0

I only defend when I feel threatened... there must be offense for there to be defense... and I never feel my beliefs being offended.

People may disagree with my beliefs in which case I will explain, justify, expand, and explain why I believe (or don't) in what I do or why I'm not what you say I am.

Maybe you call that being defensive about my beliefs... but I just call it being conversant about my beliefs. 😉

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