Agnostic.com

314 12

Incest: Immoral or Moral?

I was asked this question today by a theist. If there is no God why is safe sex between brother and sister immoral to an atheist? This guy was smart to add safe sex because it closed off my avenue to argue the health issue. So, I was thinking why is it immoral if it is consensual? I understand we find it gross but is that because of Christian influence?

  • 140 votes
  • 79 votes
paul1967 8 Oct 12
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

314 comments (26 - 50)

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

1

The act of "safe sex" between siblings can be problematic because there might me power relationships between them - but if they're in a relationship as equals, and if they're both old enough to give consent, I wouldn't see it as immoral/unethical.

MarcO Level 5 Oct 19, 2017
1

Game of Thrones is pure fantasy but it's rife with incest. I lean towards thinking religion swayed everyone towards believing what they chose you to believe. Aside from that apparently incest is relatively common throughout history. The deformity debate is moot because two unrelated people can create deformity as well but not necessarily with a higher degree of chance. Takeaway the religious aspect and the deformity aspect add in consensual agreement and you have two people willingly having sex. There is nothing immoral about it.

SamL Level 7 Oct 19, 2017
2

Well, sometimes safe sex is not safe, nothing is 100 percent

sometimes smart water is not smart, nothing is 100 percent. The adjective 'Safe' I don't think is ever realistically applicable to the word 'sex' in general.

2

It is immoral if it is in the context of pedophilia and or rape. If adults choose such a thing, the risk of genetic mutation from an offspring is too high. It is selfish and highly immoral to risk bringing a defective human being into a world that is difficult enough to navigate. If related adults want children there are plenty to choose from via adoption.

3

An adult engaging in sex with his/her offspring is wrong, we all know the psychological effect of pedophilia and the high risk of genetic mutation.

3

It is immoral, because it messes up the best family dynamics. Imagine a wife or sibling think they did not get treated properly in a family setting.

5

I believe that if both parties are consenting and their intention isn't to have children, it is moral. Like other commenters are mentioning, incest can lead to birth defects and gentic mutations that would lower the quality of life for the offspring. If contraceptives or other methods are used, I see no reason why two relatives couldn't have a prosperous relationship.

A great answer, consenting adults are the two words that in my mind make the difference.
Falling in love is the most beautiful experience ever and if it is true love felt from the heart people should be able to grasp it and enjoy it without the disapproval of others

1

As long as both are consenting adults then it isn't the business of anyone else. It might be distasteful, but not immoral.

2

Immoral if there's a kid because then he/she is screwed for life. Moral if they are consenting adults with no consequence.

1

Unless the couple are twins; one will be older than the other, there are issues with consent, age (being a minor), and perhaps specific circumstances could make it acceptable, but not "moral".

3

Taboo & Both.

It's commonly not consensual and, therefore, immoral.

It's also common that separated siblings find each other. If you don't honestly know, how could anyone claim it to be immoral.

morality is subjective

3

Ironically, in the Biblical worldview, incest is not only acceptable but is the very way in which our species has survived - twice. Adam and Eve, then Noah and his happy little family. Disregard the fact that such a situation is biologically impossible. Anyway, back to the real world.

Incest itself is neither moral nor immoral. It would be immoral for children to come from such a relationship, because inbred children have a very high chance of being born with a genetic disorder. However, incest itself is no more moral nor immoral than gay, lesbian, anal, oral sex or all the other kinky categories one can find on Pornhub.

People keep saying that it's not immoral or moral. I would say gay sex is moral because it's two people enjoying a sexual act. Doesn't everything land in one of those two camps? At the very least if we say something isn't wrong isn't that the same as saying it's moral? Isn't morality a description of things wrong or not wrong? I open to being shown that I'm wrong.

2

just will not have sex with my daughter

2

Not something that I support.

R u sure about that?

0

It isn't something I would do and I think it's icky but, so long as those participating don't have children, I don't care in the slightest.

3

First, a Christian has no way to oppose incest because it is practiced quite a bit in their religion. Second, it might not be moral or immoral. Third, in the vast majority of cases I guess it would be immoral because of the family dynamics involved. Fourth, consider the strongest case of sibling incest that might be not immoral, two people who do not know each other at all and never find out they are siblings. In that case, I don't know. Fifth, safe sex doesn't mean no pregnancies. It is difficult to not have revulsion for the idea.

I like this answer because of how impossible it is to follow due to spelling and grammatical issues , good work! Made me laugh for a bit.

3

Uh- do I really have to answer that? If you think about screwing your mother, father, daughter, son, brother, sister, etc. instead of the big pool of humans you have to choose from, then I'd suggest a shrink. And I don't need to hear about the flawed theory of cultural relativism. It's proven that incest, and therefore, the overlapping of genes, causes serious physical and mental problems.

I'm not trying to be combative but did you respond only to the title of the question or was this your response to the whole issue below the title?

You're not being combative, and yes I'm guilty of not fully reading the post. It's just that I know many good people whose lives were ruined due to incest, so it tends to put me in the red zone. I guess if you use protection, and want to have relations w/a relative, it's a person's individual choice, but you know, sometimes contraception fails.

I need to add, there ARE those people (and there seems to be quite a few) who are predisposed to incestuousness. Freud, Klein, Fairbairn, Winnicott, would say those people were "arrested" in their development and did not get past the pre-oedipal or the oedipal stage of childhood. ("The Primer of Object Relations" by David and Jill Scharff)

1

non sequitur , the question is too vague to be answered definitively one way or the other. An incestuous relationship between legally consenting parties is none of my business provided that intercourse does not result in the birth of a child. There is no sensible reason to subject a child to that kind of genetic predisposition to defect and social scorn. Otherwise, I couldn't give a toss.

27

first of all, I know people who are the products of incestuous rape that have no deformities. I also knew a lot of people who come from parents not genetically related who have major disabilities, so that isn't an issue. Besides, off you're having safe sex.....

This is one area where we are taught that is gross. But since it happens, it's perfectly natural.

The fact is that morality isn't about what you think other consenting adults are doing. Morality is about conducting yourself with integrity, and not allowing your preferences to hurry other people. So incestuous rape is immoral. Incest between consenting adults is not. Just like any rape is immoral, but sex between consenting adults is not.

Cheri Level 5 Oct 28, 2017

My concern is the medical/genetic point of view. Incest can and does cause genetic concerns. Granted it may not cause it in every case, but the potential is always there. One scenerio poised above was separated at birth, found each other , fell in love, and etc,etc,etc. children in such a case could and probably would gave some genetic abberrations pop up. Genetic counciling and testing would be wise. The moral aspect? I don't see a problem there, but from a legal point of view, there is a problem. In mist states relatives closer than second cousins are forbidden from marriage because of the potential for genetic changes, often times harming th children. I have seen the genetic aberrations from close family marriages. Most suffer mental retardation and physical challenges. Living in the south I have seen dozens of families that had children that had major health problems from incestious relationships. Look at the Middle East. In mist underdeveloped countries many marry family members due to the fact that they seldom move more than a few miles from their homes. In Islamic countries they state that 25% of the population has mental illness due to having children with close family relations. It's not uncommon to seefirst cousins marry. Not just in Islamic countries but in many Asian countries and India. The birth defects in close familial marriages are well documented.

@TheMiddleWay ...probably what happened with Adam & Eve & Caine... imagine.

@TheMiddleWay According to this study there's a 42% chance of abnormailty in 50% relations, which is pretty high. I'd always thought it was less. I wonder what it is for the general population. [psychologytoday.com]

@girlwithsmiles I don't know! I must have the luckiest family in history. Lots and lots of child molestation going on, but few problems. Maybe my recent ancestors had amazing genes! ?

@WilliamLee another scenario is if 2 (half) siblings, conceived from the same sperm donor, meet, fall in love, and have children before finding out they are siblings: [slate.com]

Yes if the sex is consented to why not? At least there is love there, If my sister and I want to have sex that is up to us and nobody else.

@girlwithsmiles That is about correct. Middleways understanding of modern genetics seems to be a little faulty, in several small ways. I have heard that the risk is small but real. It may be an urban myth, but I have also heard that the risks of problems for the child, is about the same as that for the children of older fathers over fifty.

6

I don't know if I would say that it was moral as much as i don't think its inherently immoral. Of course that statement has to be qualified. I think if both parties are consenting adults, and that assumes that there is no coercion, then I can see anything objectively wrong with it.

0

I am saying immoral just based on criminal statutes. There are also issues of genetic disorders from incest.

3

I can't say moral or immoral because those are social judgments based largely on social norms, but also on facts, such as inbreeding. But the truth is that pederaste was common and accepted for generations in Europe, royalty and aristocracies have in-bred publicly and even today, supposedly "moral" religious practices (not just LDS cults) marry off their children at young ages even to close relatives. I'm not sure how society has come to look down on what we call incest, but I'm sure that had a lot to do with the advent of rights-recall that even in early America, women and children were chattel and could be beaten by the male owner... until society started changing the narratives and fighting not only for women's rights, but also for the rights of children to not be abused... and our social definitions of child abuse have also changed consistently and incessantly for eternity.
As a product of a western society upbringing, I still have thoughts about incest being abuse, but, a better question is to ask the theist to justify all the incest, pederaste, and the forcing of victims to marry the rapist...Which is more "immoral?"

5

Because no age parameters or relationships were given, I am going with immoral under the assumption that there is a significant age gap, disparate levels of education/power/wealth, or other inequalities that would put one party at a disadvantage. For example, a girl and her Father vs two 35 year old first cousins are vastly different scenarios.

There were no parameters given, so I will say immoral when it's father/daughter or uncle/niece. (I've read older male on younger female is most common form of incest.) The power within the authority figure in such cases bring me to the immoral side of the argument. I would also say immoral if it's mother/son or aunt/nephew. I believe even well into adulthood there is always that authority figure issue with parents and aunts/uncles. Now, sister/brother or first cousins are relationships that should be judged on a per-case basis. Is one more dominant than the other? It would, of necessity, have to be an egalitarian relationship for me to go to the moral side. I've enjoyed reading everyone's comment on this topic.

0

The offspring will be freaky mutant kids.

2

Well...if you are looking at it from the biological perspective of reproduction, there is that risk of passing on genetically inherited flaws and afflictions (weak chins, poor vision, disabilities) so it may not be wise. On the other hand, if you don't have any genetic markers for health concerns you would strengthen your bloodline and could lead to a better, faster, stronger (depending on strengths) specimen. Kinda hard to get past the 'eww ick' factor. When you are your own aunt, things get weird. But you probably will get something better than socks and an autoharp cd for your birthday. I don't think that immoral or moral are really the best choices because morality generally is passed down through religious dogma. Better to say gross or not gross. Not easy to get out of the gross camp. If it were a social norm with which I had grown up I would likely feel differently.

But from a biological perspective there is the biggest problem - we share 25% of the same genes as our siblings which is likely to cause genetic abnormalities to the offspring. But what you may have missed in the question were the words "safe sex".

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:1366
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.