I've already been to hell and you can too. Go to Chuck E Cheese on a Saturday afternoon.

The older I get the more I realize that I went through the motions to fit in or more precise to avoid family drama. Heaven and hell, by popular description, both sound like horrible concepts to me.

Logic is an abstract concept, a way of framing one's understanding of the world. We have no record of its existence prior to Aristotle (340-ish BC). So that part is, in a back-handed way, true.

But then again, zillions of concepts didn't exist until they did. The operational principle of the internal combustion engine, electricity, the concept of childhood, women's suffrage, and much more -- all of those are not much more than a century old and yet the people who tell you god hates logic happily make use of those concepts and understandings. Why is logic a special target of their ire?

Because, as they themselves have told you, god is not a logical concept. So the only thing they can do is attack logic itself (and "mere human understanding" ). This is just another form of special pleading that says god is not subject to the rules or constraints that everyone and everything else is subject to. Such as his existence having to be evidenced before people should afford belief to him.

It's like saying that there's an invisible car that runs on internal non-combustion using invisible gasoline and that demanding evidence for this is a sin that will subject you to an eternal traffic jam. Whereas believing in the invisible car will snag you a free ride to Los Angeles. After you die, of course.

Back when I was a fundamentalist Christian, more than one pastor confessed to me that his most vexing problem was a subset of people in church who never "feel saved" no matter how many times they "go forward". They constantly live in terror of god's displeasure (= hell) no matter what you tell them. So this is not an issue confined to some atheists, it is an anxiety experienced by some believers as well. They are genuinely tormented by it.

The French call this idée fixe, an obsessive idea that dominates one's thinking. It's usually a product of obsessive-compulsive or perfectionist tendencies, and I would urge you to seek mental health counseling around this issue, as it probably impacts you in other ways. It's just that it happens to have seized upon religious ideation as a focal point -- and quite possibly, you've been traumatized with it, transforming it into a form of PTSD.

Your position is more common then one would expect.

I've de-converted a few religious (Catholic) and in one case, a young man I de-converted a week after he was able to ascend from the darkness of superstition (took me about two months and hundreds of hours to get him there) to the light or reason, he thanked me many times because, as an atheist, he no longer fears hell. Before that time he was often terrified and had a hard time sleeping because he feared burning in hell forever.

This episode may be worth watching. . . .

And your thoughts are a perfect example of what hell is all about. Your own disruptive thoughts in your own mind. They jumble around and interrupt all the good stuff, and weigh you down with "what ifs" and guilt.

Hope you find a cure !

@saitama I think you are not ready for this site either.... no worries, you have some thinking to do and then you can always come back any time.

This is what I think - heaven and hell are simply states of being here, in this life. There is no afterlife- but there is both heaven on earth and hell on earth. Go and find the “heaven” that exists here and be happy - heaven is volunteering and meeting friends, going for a walk with a pet, going swimming, reading a fabulous book, making something creative, making delicious food, having a hot shower. Hell is political torture, war, fascism, church hypocrisy and paedophilia- you get my point. Some people really do live in hell. We only have a short time here, so make it “heavenly” as nothing is permanent! Stop worrying about a fictional place and get all the happiness you can in this short reality.

The thought of the eternal torture in Hell was the first thing that disappeared in my thinking. The second was that Noah thing. But, while trying to become a "liberal" christian, I was at a point of where I thought of that location like the FSM teaching of it being a place where the beer is stale.

I was in Catholic high school when the idea of hell stopped making sense to me. Think about it. Even if you were the worst murderous vile person in the world for say a lifespan of eighty years. Why would a just God punish you with ETERNITY of suffering in hell. The punishment doesnt fit the crime. Makes no sense at all and serves no purpose. I pointed this out on a Theology Exam and failed the test. No explanation no reason no answer to my reasoning. Just a big red F. I was sent to stand out in the hall several times during that course lol because no one could answer my questions.

Interesting how many claim to know the "mind of God" when they fail to figure out fundamental aspects of life for themselves. I know several who are more than willing to declare that I'm going to hell for not sharing in their convictions, but it seems to me that these people would feel just as free making these condemnations with or without the backing of a God. Being so empowered, to me, suggests they're no longer dependent upon a God to exercise wrath. They can do so in His stead. But they can only achieve this if you grant them the power to do so. Deny them that power.

I think you are looking at things a bit backwards (meant as an observation, not criticism).

Christians tell you tht god is beyond logic, but if fact secular philosophy has moved beyond a concept of morality as stated by various "hol"y or "sacred" books.

God was a creation of man, and teh commandments and morality attributed to god, were also written by men, who wrote bod's will to be what was most advantageous to them or to fulfill their own desires, and in that time period it probably made sense. If you were short on funds you could sell your daughter(s) into (sexual) slavery. It was advantageous for slaves to be comanded to "know" (have sex with) their masters. You cold accuse your enemies of slight infractions where the penalty was beign stoned to death, and you coudl calim that a war which destroyed an entire city ws commanded by god to satisfy your blood lust.

In today's society secular thought and philosophy has updated and upgraded our level of morality beyond what god supposedly put into effect. It isn't that god is beyond us, but it is us who ae now beyond a need for a god.

Saitama, the thing that let me finally let go of fear of punishment was to stop trying to find the proof of non-existence of god(s).
Ask yourself, if God exists, then what is God and what could God possibly expect from me?
There is certainly unfathomable great power running the cosmos. If, hypothetically, somehow, that power has a unified consciousness, then either it runs things without regard to the input and choices of individual sentient beings such as ourselves, in which case trying to please or appease such a deity makes no difference, ...OR if it actually takes a personal interest in our attitudes, choices, and beliefs, then without a doubt an all-powerful, all knowing force would surely set things up to ensure that we understand and are able to do what "he" wants of us. If you are all-powerful, controlling time itself, and if you care to know that your living creations revere and obey you, would you not ensure that your "beloved" creations were equiped and knowledgeable to do what you want of them? Of course you would.
The fact that there our countless varying belief systems and people sincerely trying and failing to abide by those various systems is proof that such a hypothetical God has failed to make "him"-self clear or to properly prepare humans.

On the other side of the puzzle, you yourself are not rebellious. You are struggling with a combination of sincere doubts and questions and with appetites and impulses that are difficult to always know when and how best to control.
How would an omniscient, all-powerful, loving, personal God condemn you for being flawed and limited as he made you? "He" wouldn't. The Christian paradigm is therefore impossible. It is oxymoronic. (It is obvious, therefore, that it was dreamed up as a social control tactic, by humans, against other humans.)

If God wants you to understand and believe, God can damn well make it happen. Until that time (and don't hold your breath about it) just live your life the best you know how.

Ohferpetessake, get a grip!

1. If there is such a place, you will meet all your friends there!
2. There is no such thing as heaven or hell, except what you create in your own mind while you are supposed to be Living!

It is a fictional place invented by religion as a form of control. Like Santa Clause or Krampus invented by the Germans to control the children.