I'm interested in what everyone thinks about morality. I've read a lot of books about the topic and watched a lot of academics speak on the matter, but I'm interested because it seems that many popular agnostics and atheists, even many claiming to be humanists, have turned out to do some things I consider blatantly immoral or dickish.
I do understand and believe that my own morality in many respects is a matter of convenience, but I do feel like, even being in lower middle class for most of my life, I've went out of my way most of my life to not commit actions I know will hurt people, but many agnostics and atheists I know have told me things or even done things to me that made me question how corrupt people are, or how corrupt I am and just don't know it.
So what is morality for those of us with no God to decide it, and how important is it?
Many years ago a man told me that 'morals' and 'morality' is between a person and his god and that ethics covers people to people and It made sense to me then and still does. This is basically how I have chosen to live my life. Based on this definition I have no morality because I have no god but I talked to the head man at an atheist organization a few years ago and he rejected my position saying that ethics do not cover such things as our treatment of animals and morality is required for that.....I disagree!! I consider myself as an animal, mammal in particular, and theres a lot of very large and dangerous animals out there and I have met more than my share of them and have the scars to prove it!! I have never been inclined to pray to 'people gods' to save me nor to animal gods to call off the attacks!!
I think most people rely on others to establish their values,at least in part. With any group, formal or not, there are written and especially unwritten expectations concerning behavior which we choose to subscribe to. I prefer those who think for themselves,decide their own morality. I will not be a sheep. I am guided greatly by my conscience. I allow myself to be influenced by those I choose.
Morality is wholly subjective. Sure, there are some things almost everyone can agree on as being immoral. The rest is all up to the individual.
Personally, I like the "do unto others, as you would have done unto you", and "do no harm".
I think that covers most things.
Morality is governed by your conscience. If, like many religious people, you need a book to tell you not to hurt someone then you will never be a moral person. It's common sense. It's common decency. If you're not sure if something is moral then ask your conscience. If it doesn't give you an answer....you may need counseling!
Good questions. It calls into view the notions of "just war, self-defense and righteous anger." . Morality is a fluid thing since it's a human construct that depends on what society and culture you are from. So I think it means that there is no Universal convention with a capital M. What is considered moral in your location is different from what is considered moral elsewhere. It is in the eye of the beholder. Perhaps all we can do is create our own code that is as objective and global as possible that feels right to us such that we can live with ourselves without guilt. For some people, that means doing no harm. For others, it can mean never letting anyone or anything get the best of them. I suppose that is a kind of anarchy, but in the end, the condition of the weakest amongst us shows whether or not our code is beneficial for the one or for the whole.
Hi.Im talking to a theist.He's clever . Got me tied up.Can anybody help me answer it?.Hi Keith,
The only way you can have a problem with the atrocities that you say are in the Bible, is if you accept that there's an absolute moral standard by which to hold them by. Otherwise you have no basis on which to call them atrocities.
It is not logical to hold the Bible and God to an absolute standard of morality that you don't believe exists.
And if you think morals evolved over long periods of time, you're assuming that the things that you think are absolutely right or wrong now, we're also absolutely right and wrong then. But according to what you think, the things that you think are atrocities back then, may have been totally acceptable, because those morals hadn't 'evolved' to what you think they should be. Again, you are holding God to an absolute standard that you and other Atheists don't believe in.
Like I've said before, it's obvious that there's an absolute moral standard in this universe, I don't even need to prove it because people demonstrate it every day, every time you watch the news or read a newspaper. You demonstrate it when you talk about good and evil, right and wrong, and when you talk about atrocities.
And the only reason there's an absolute moral standard in this universe is because of God. There's no way round it.
It's also not a logical argument to say that morals 'evolved' over long periods, but then accuse people or God for not living up to what you think morals are now, because like I said, it would have been 'moral' then because that was the accepted standard. What you are still doing is holding God and the people back then to your absolute moral standard, which you say doesn't exist.
This is not logical or reasonable Keith.
It is a delusion to continue saying that there's no absolute moral standard, but all the while holding God and other people to an absolute moral standard.
It's a different thing to say, "God, I know You're there, but I just don't understand why you allowed certain things to happen in the Bible, and I don't know why you let certain things happen today, but I'd like to understand."
It is not ok to say,
"God, I don't even believe in you, or your Bible, but I don't like what you did in the Bible and what you do today, it's evil. Oh, and by the way, I don't even believe there's evil!"
Morality in of itself is subjective in my humble opinion. I find it very interesting, though, in my experience, and as it is on this post, that so many atheists find a dilemma in OTHER atheists merely being the flawed human beings we are. The major difference In my view , I can’t speak for anyone but myself, is that theists generally have a go to justification factor... where I use introspection and I “self check” .. especially in my relationships and interactions with other humans. Also , if someone is being an asshole, or is not necessarily handling a given situation like “I “ would , I tend not to consider whether they are atheist or theist etc. I’ve found that a lot of atheists are of the opinion that there is a higher moral ground , ie.. “geez I know or have seen some atheists acting like an ass, atheists should know better.... “ Of course I give less creedance to theists ... I can’t lie about that. I don’t hold agnostics or atheists to a higher standard though. For me it comes down to what, who and why I’m willing to trust, respect , and engage with based on my own moral compass, even though I cringe even calling it that. Certainly the “consensus “ of “morality “ is too subjective and skewed to even try to make sense of it. If one thinks certain behaviors or belief systems represent a dick move , one can choose not to participate or engage. The very idea that there is a higher moral ground , as opposed to personal standards, for me is easier to navigate. Lastly, I don’t know one human , including myself that hasn’t been guilty of some sort of dick move... I’d say my standard would be ... is that an inherent behavior? Is it something one discussed in the context of acknowledging and ceasing to continue it? The simple answer for me is that if one at least makes a genuine effort not to be a dick ... that’s the litmus test. Morality in of itself hasn’t been the best way to judge our fellow humans in my humble opinion.
There are assholes everywhere. Religious folks may base their actions, good or bad, in their religion. That is, it might guide them to be good people or they might use it to justify bad/harmful behavior. Non-believers are no different. What I believe as an atheist is that people have a responsibility to others (rather than to god) to be good people. Other atheists might believe that the only thing they are accountable to is themselves.
Maybe people who are inclined to be bad people just use whatever they believe in (or don’t) to justify it.
I try to live by the golden rule. People are going to loose sight of the effects of their actions whether they follow a religion or not. Hurting others is not always intentional. Maybe I'm wrong but what a person can know about religion isn't an indicator of their morality.
Morality is subjective I believe. I just try to do the best I can. I don't screw people over, I don't cheat, steal, try not to lie (ok maybe just little ones lol) etc. I can only be responsible for me. I have my sets of morals and standards and everyone else has theirs.
i love ALL my brothers and sisters in my human family and I have 3 gatekeepers for my personal morality and ethics. I STRIVE to treat others as I want to be treated. I STRIVE to never do anything to anyone that I would not want done to me. I STRIVE to do or cause no harm.
I believe “laws” exist because morality isn’t quite enough. At times society (or self) will justify behavior even when it violates established law. Speeding on the highway, political lobbiests, corrupt government, police, immoral lawyers, etc. We have laws to prevent, control and punish, still many crimes go unpunished, and when that happens, it becomes a reward, or justified morality, which “god” is ok with.