One of the few good arguments against atheists is the issue of meaning. The answer of the “New Atheists” is: “Life is even more meaningful if there’s no afterlife because it’s all we have” and “The answer to meaning will be different for every atheist, because it’s up to us to decide what will make life worth living”. This is all pretty, but it does leave a vacuum. Ultimately, the universe doesn’t know you are here, doesn’t care, has no purpose. Life has no purpose.
I am sure many would be atheists, can’t let go of religion because they find the idea there is no purpose to this whole charade that is life, ridiculous. They need a sense of meaning that’s beyond their individual caprice. Jordan Peterson has interesting ideas on the subject.
What gives your life meaning? Do you think life and the universe have a purpose?
i don't find the issue of meaning a good argument at all against atheism. of course there is meaning without a supreme being but let's imagine for a moment that life is indeed meaningless. if it is, it is! and if we don't like that, we don't like that! does our not LIKING how something is prove it ISN'T that way? that is one of the worst arguments against atheism i've ever heard, APART from the fact that we make our own meaning and the whole meaningless-without-god thing is bogus from the git-go.
as for your last question: life is a characteristic, not a thing. it can't have a purpose. people can have a purpose. life itself? it is its own purpose, just as the universe is. to attribute purpose you have to attribute will, and to attribute will, you have to have someone to exercise the will . that implies (in this instance) a supreme being. i believe there are none of those. so i don't use the word purpose with regard to life or the universe. i may have one. i decide that!
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It’s not a good argument against atheism in the sense that it proves there’s a God or anything like that. I’m referring to the fact that many theists recognize the contradictions of heir religions, but given the alternative is Nihilism -which is ultimately what atheism offers today- they will buy any lie to keep a sense of meaning.
What i’m saying is that not all people are able to live a life where they must be responsible to find THEIR OWN meaning. Most people don’t have the strength, intellect, inclination to face such huge dilemmas. People deal with depression, death, poverty, injustice, inequality. Atheism leaves them naked and unarmed.
My question is not for you to explain me things I already know. Your arguments wouldn’t help converting a religious person. I’m trying to see if the problem of meaning can be approached from a new perspective, see if we have more to offer to those people than simply: “There’s no God, find your own meaning!”. That only works for a tiny minority that’s strong enough to deal with that answer. I am seeking something better than nihilism. I’m seeking new perspectives and ideas. The ones you offer are the same as always.
@Lucignolo the only argument against atheism WOULD be the existence of a god. any other argument would be for making yourself believe in something you know you don't believe in.
nihilism is NOT ultimately what atheism offers today. atheism isn't a thing that offers something. it's just the recognition that there are no gods. it's not a system or a religion or anything. not believing in a supreme being is not the same as believing in nothing. one can believe in human kindness. that's not nihilism.
as for telling you what you already know, sorry, have we met before and i've just forgotten? i don't KNOW what you know. i just know what you've SAID and ASKED. i responded to that. i don't know what perspectives are new to you. have i repeated something you've heard before? how rude of me. maybe you've heard it before because it's right! and i wasn't trying to offer anything to religionists. i was trying to answer your question. you asked what i thought. (me, and others. plural you.) you didn't ask me what i thought would be a good thing to say to a religionist.
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I'm having a hard time because life is limited. I want to do so much and basically know everything (that I see as valuable), but I have to decide what I want my life to be. What I would like to say is meaning is potentially everywhere you look. You just have to find a pathway through all that nice juicy (potential) meaning in the world. The source of that meaning comes from within oneself. Find what makes you happy or what makes the world a better place, whatever you like, except maybe don't hurt others along the way, please. We are all in this together.
Sorry, I can't relate to feeling a need for purpose in life. Outside of religious debates/conversations I never think about it. I am an animal. Life consists of living and living consists of simple pleasures.
Like learning, building, developing, spending time with friends.
In hundred years none of this will matter but these things are pleasing to me and I find pursuing them to be constructive.
...and why would Jordan Peterson, whoever he or she may be, have a better insight into what is best for you, than you.
He has interesting ideas worth considering. He is an author and wrote a whole book on meaning.
He doesn’t have the arrogance to dictate what’s meaningful to others. He approaches it from a philosophical/etiologic perspective.
As smart as one can be, by reading and listening to other’s ideas one can gain new perspective or straight learn things he had no clue about. That’s the idea behind education.
Most and foremost, I don’t care about meaning for myself. As I explained int he post, I’m trying to find better answers for religious people that can’t let go of religion because they can’t conceive the idea that life is meaningless. Some people find the idea of a meaningless universe absurd, not from a rational standpoint, but from an emotional one. They know religion is equally absurd deep down, but to many, the idea of a creator is less absurd than the idea of a universe with no purpose. I want a secular theory of meaning, but here nobody is up to the task. I have to say it’s disappointing to see most atheists here have given little thought to these issues.
By being honest with and to yourself.
Good one
There is no universal meaning and that is the beauty of it.
You can choose your own meaning, and this is so powerful because it is YOUR choice, you control it and no one can tell that it is fundamentally wrong (although it can be harmful or inconvenient to the rest of the world and then they can try to stop you).
Through a Biologist’s eyes ,the meaning of ALL life is to pass on our DNA. Evolution makes sure that the best Genetic material is chosen .For me personally,the meaning of life is the success of my children and their children in the betterment of Humanity !
I try not to have meaning. It seems counterproductive to being nice to folks.
Why does life need meaning?
It doesn’t, but then let’s resign to the fact atheists will remain a minority because you can bet 90% of the religious people I’ve spoken to understand atheism, understand the objections to the existence of God, but repudiate the idea that anything they do doesn’t matter, and that life is meaningless.
I wish we had a good alternative answer to their need for meaning.
@Lucignolo The answer is education, however, it is very evident in our society that one can refuse said education and one's parents can even refuse to offer it as well. I never thought we'd come this far though and I'm glad to see that in some European countries we make up the majority. Unfortunately, the US is always several decades behind.
Life does not come with meaning and/or purpose. Not all people create their own meaning and/or purpose, some just live and then die, and some are very happy with the ride.
Personally I think that I need to create something significant that alters the way humans process information for the better and that is my purpose because I don't know of anyone else who is trying.
The meaning of life is found everywhere, but life is the reason for life. It seeks to perpetuate itself, but that seeking is mechanical. The meaning, on the other hand, is self generated to varying degrees in the different species that make up the biosphere. I am reasonably certain that a bacterium finds no meaning in life and quite probably doesn't care in the least.
Humans, being one of the more complex forms of life, search constantly for meaning. For whatever reason, they tend to think there must be meaning to it all. Frequently, they invent meaning for themselves, then attempt to force their interpretation of meaning on all the others. They call that religion --- or government --- or both.
Life is only meaningful to the individual for as long as they can remember it - after they die - not so much. If you're talking about legacy - that is up to our kids and their descendants with the hopes that none turn out to be a serial killer. Though even that has meaning because they came from us - though I would have died a long time ago and likely didn't give it much thought before I died. We live because we do and we die because we do - Dung Beetles have sex - it's not anymore complicated than that. "Meaning" is something you pulled out of an orifice - it's a meaningless concept.
One of my favorite topic of conversation! I love to hear different ideas, especially from atheists. In general each one of us, given the circumstances of our life experience can give an answer. Since I do not believe in free will, I think that each decision is guided by a chain of events that necessarily had started in the past, possibly from the real beginning of our Universe. So from day to day we must do our best to adapt and enjoy the ride.
But then wouldn't whether we "adapt and enjoy the ride" be beyond our ability to choose? That is, wouldn't it be predetermined as well?
At farm fresh two years ago , a young boy came behind me and touched me on my hip to get my attention . I did not recognized him . He told me his name was A .... and " u r the lady w funny accent who gave me medicine and saved my life remember me , I remember u , do the monkey again ! " I seen his mother standing by smiling . Unfortunately , still did not remeber , but I pretend I did . So many people every night . The kid has asthma crisis from what mom explained . He told me he plays basketball now . He said " thank u lady , I love u ". I cried . I felt like a million bucks , whatever that means in America , I felt the most important life in this plannet . I did my famous monkey impression as well , right there at candy alley too . That's the meaning of life as far as I care . Rest , I give two rats behinds about . Is that makes sense ?
I think this is probably the most important thing that needs to be framed correctly for believers to at least not be fearful of atheists.
We need to move forward is what gives my life meaning. Not sure how else to say it though.
This is exactly what I mean, my friend! We need better answers if we want to be effective. Telling people “figure it out yourself” is very mature, and it puts the responsibility where it belongs, but:
a. Nobody wants to take responsibility!! They want answers fed to them! Otherwise they wouldn’t be believers to start with!
b. Not everyone has the courage to accept their existence is meaningless.
There might be a better way of finding an answer to the existential question of purpose.