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Where do you find meaning?

One of the few good arguments against atheists is the issue of meaning. The answer of the “New Atheists” is: “Life is even more meaningful if there’s no afterlife because it’s all we have” and “The answer to meaning will be different for every atheist, because it’s up to us to decide what will make life worth living”. This is all pretty, but it does leave a vacuum. Ultimately, the universe doesn’t know you are here, doesn’t care, has no purpose. Life has no purpose.

I am sure many would be atheists, can’t let go of religion because they find the idea there is no purpose to this whole charade that is life, ridiculous. They need a sense of meaning that’s beyond their individual caprice. Jordan Peterson has interesting ideas on the subject.

What gives your life meaning? Do you think life and the universe have a purpose?

Lucignolo 6 Sep 9
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What does Peterson say about it?

skado Level 9 Sep 9, 2018

He wrote a whole book about it. But here is a start:

@Lucignolo
I don't disagree with the points JBP makes here, but to get a broader view of this question I think we have to back up a notch, to the question behind it: Why is Homo sapiens the only animal that spends time worrying about the meaning of life? Is there any evidence that pandas or crocodiles or mockingbirds cogitate about this issue? The first part of this answer is pretty immediately obvious; our big brains are capable of abstract thought. Without that capacity the concern is not even conceivable. Without the capacity for abstract thought all we could do is try to meet the demands of our instinctual urges, like the deer or opossum. We would be satisfied to seek food, safety, procreation, etc.

The other, perhaps more important, half of the answer may not be as readily apparent. Humans have created a more reliable, artificial, supply chain to meet our natural needs. Our complex, technology-infused societies automatically pipe hot and cold running satisfaction right to our climate controlled, police protected, indemnified, feeding and reproduction stations. We have the luxury of worrying about meaning.

Wherever these supply systems have broken down or have not been built, humans, oversized crania notwithstanding, are more like our animal cousins regarding this question. Ask a starving family in South Sudan, or a terrified teenager in war-torn Syria how many hours per day they spend wrestling with the meaning conundrum. They have all the meaning they can handle. It is our outrageous success that provides the incubator for this imaginary problem. I think it really has less to do with our religious convictions than how full our stomachs are.

Now, given that most of us reading this website ate today, and have the luxury of suffering over meaning and purpose, Jordan is probably right. In times of peace and plenty, the next emergent opportunity for meaning is our potential for contributing value to our community, and nothing about that depends on whether we envision it in religious or evolutionary terms.

@skado are you suggesting it's all white priveleged folk's problems ? ?

@SimonCyrene
I’m betting it leans that way.

@skado As humans I believe we have a duty to investigate the world, find more truth, find meaning, make new discoveries.

Philosophy is still relevant because what we think of ourselves and our role in the universe affects how we act towards our planet, other animals, towards each other.

I’m not saying JP is right or wrong. I just think it’s good to incorporate new ideas in our minds. Meaning is just as imaginary as education, morality, omnivorousism, marriage. It’s all just ideas and humans have been wondering about this particular topic for millennia, even when their stomachs weren’t as full as ours.

I posted this question under philosophy, where it belongs. You may find it to be trivial or pointless, I was asking people that are actually interested in contributing to the conversation. Pointing out these are first world problems not worth considering adds nothing. If you think it’s a waste of time, no one is forcing you to think about this or any other issues that aren’t filling your belly with food.

I think many people desperately need to feel their life has a meaning beyond materialistic or mundane things. That keeps them clinging to religion, charlatans, and other sellers of lies. I wish for a world free of religion and magical thinking. The only way it will be achieved is through an evolution of ideas. Atheism today is just nihilism, it offers no hope to people that can’t live without it or that are told to find their own. Since I want atheism to be a viable option, that can be successful, I am seeking new answers and engaging in all sorts of new ideas. That gives me meaning and purpose. ? Ultimately I’d like to leave the world a better place than I found it and I believe finding ways to allow people to digest and accept the truth is a great one.

@skado the physical and the metaphysical touch? The rest of the talk is an exercise in showing how smart he is, leaving small crumbs that would benefit a good car salesman for his next pitch.
It would be so much simpler to expose an elementary philosophy of existentialism, without so many convolutions.

@Lucignolo

Please accept my apologies. It was not my intention to trivialize your question, but looking back over what I wrote I can easily see how you might have gotten that impression. I very definitely thought your post was a worthy topic of discussion. That's why I immediately hit the "like" button under it, watched the video you sent me (thank you) and spent a couple hours of my time composing what I thought (and apparently a couple other people thought) was a useful philosophical contribution to the conversation.

I did not at all mean to suggest that the quest for meaning is only a product of your imagination, but rather a product of the overactive imagination of Homo sapiens, exactly as you suggest, just like "education, morality, omnivorousism, marriage" etc. My point being that if we can imagine ourselves into these challenges, maybe we can imagine ourselves back out of them by seeing them for what they are: problems that don't plague species who don't possess 'Formal Operational Stage' thinking skills, and haven't oversupplied their natural appetites, leaving a "meaning-vacuum".

This state of affairs is not a result of modern first world opulence, but more likely a consequence of the Agricultural Revolution of ten to twelve thousand years ago. It was certainly in full swing in the fertile crescent some two thousand years before Jesus joined the fray. Artifacts suggest Homo sapiens may have been toying with symbolic thought as far back as forty to a hundred thousand years ago, but whatever the date, it seems safe to assume our forebears of two or three hundred thousand years ago weren't suffering for lack of meaning in their lives. All this to say that it probably isn't a problem inherent in material reality but one more related to mental management.

Far from thinking this is a trivial issue, I too recognize that "many people desperately need to feel their life has a meaning beyond materialistic or mundane things" and, there is literally nothing more ~meaningful~ to me than contributing in some constructive way toward a solution to this problem. If I didn't respect your contribution to the discussion, rest assured I would not have bothered to comment on your post. I have nothing but disdain for hit-and-run smear tactics.

Where our thinking might diverge a tad is that I don't categorically assign "religion" to the garbage heap of "lies". I tend to define religion more broadly than just superstitious thinking, to include any mental practice that helps us counterbalance our evolved animal nature toward our higher aspirations, encompassing not only the numerous extant obsolete schemes, but also any rare, possible healthy ones.
I agree with your assessment that a nihilistic atheism won't fill the real need, but that the solution must be founded on a willingness to relinquish our dependence on literal deity concepts.

Since you are "seeking new answers and engaging in all sorts of new ideas" I assumed you might be open to an earnest discussion that examined possible amalgamations of evidence-based worldviews with reformed religious practice. I'm reasonably confident that this is a "new" enough idea that it hasn't yet been adequately explored. People usually tend to aggregate around one extreme or the other, but creative answers are often forged by "reaching across the aisle".

JBP appreciator that I admittedly am, I do tend to feel sometimes that his solutions seem to emanate from a privileged perspective, and one could argue that the enlarged H.sapiens brain of 200K years ago might comprise a "privilege" of sorts, but I was in no way suggesting that a good-faith discussion of our very real (in my opinion) "crisis of meaning" was not worth discussing. Getting complex ideas across the technological ethers without inadvertently stepping on the occasional toe is a high bar to meet, and I fail often, but never for lack of trying.

I find your post here to be among the most engaging I've encountered on this site, and hope to see many more from you in the future.

@Eldovis
I can't argue with you there. Peterson's explanations are often absurdly convoluted. But to the extent I can follow them, I think he often makes some legitimate, maybe groundbreaking, points. To see them though, I have to step over a lot of his annoying paranoid affectations and unnecessary defensiveness. He's a mixed bag for sure.

@skado You don’t need to apologize, sir. Thanks for taking the time to clarify your thoughts. I appreciate it. They are very eloquently expressed and clear. I didn’t understand your first post, but now I see what you mean. I like your perspective on religion and your broader interpretation of the concept. it may be a good way to move towards a better future and find common ground between sexularism and religion. Thank you

2

Not looking for meaning. Don't need a greater purpose.

4

Believers have to cope with an indifferent universe with no guarantees or special favors or privileges, just like the rest of us. It's just that they spend a lot of their life force concocting elaborate circumlocutions around the fact that their life unfolds exactly the same as if they were unbelievers.

The only difference between me and my former self was that I got tired of making excuses and admitted to myself that my lived experience was totally inconsistent with the Christian model of reality and I needed to find a better way to explain and predict my experiences. I eventually found it in critical / rational thinking, science and logic.

So it's Christians who have to experience the real "vacuum". And it sucks.

My life has all the purpose I require to get out of bed and put my pants on day after day. God is not only dead, he's overkill. I wrote some cool code today that captures and classifies email addresses and tomorrow I'll write some cool code to validate them in more detail and ping each address to see if it's alive or not. And I'll get paid good money for that work. I made my walking goal of 10,000 steps for the second day in a row, in perfect walking weather. I had a nice phone call with my oldest surviving brother, made some plans for my oldest grandson's visit next month, discussed whether it's time for a new washer and dryer with my wife, stayed inside my diet constraints without feeling too deprived, and remembered to take out the garbage. What more meaning do I need than that?

The problem most people have with meaning is they think it has to be some grandiose thing where they put up a statue of you in the town square when you die or its modern equivalent, you get fawning documentaries made about your life and work. Whereas by definition such things only happen to a few very extraordinary (and extraordinarily lucky) people. Tonight my wife and I watched such an opus about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and guess what, for all her accomplishments, her mother died of cancer before she graduated from high school, her husband nearly died of cancer early in their marriage, obliging her to nurse him, while going to law school and raising an infant only to find upon graduation that no one in all of New York City would hire her, simply because she was a woman; her husband later preceded her in death and she has had cancer herself twice since. What meaning is there in any of that chaotic shit? Not much. So that's the other side of the story, no one's life goes perfectly easy for them, and they have to find meaning in spite of that. And people do it every day, without relying on supernatural beings and empty promises of immortality and other forms of largesse and special treatment.

1

One of my favorite topic of conversation! I love to hear different ideas, especially from atheists. In general each one of us, given the circumstances of our life experience can give an answer. Since I do not believe in free will, I think that each decision is guided by a chain of events that necessarily had started in the past, possibly from the real beginning of our Universe. So from day to day we must do our best to adapt and enjoy the ride.

But then wouldn't whether we "adapt and enjoy the ride" be beyond our ability to choose? That is, wouldn't it be predetermined as well?

@Wallace in the idea of excluding the free will, it is not what is "predetermined". But rather how we find ourselves preconditioned
There is a big difference on that.

1

Life is only meaningful to the individual for as long as they can remember it - after they die - not so much. If you're talking about legacy - that is up to our kids and their descendants with the hopes that none turn out to be a serial killer. Though even that has meaning because they came from us - though I would have died a long time ago and likely didn't give it much thought before I died. We live because we do and we die because we do - Dung Beetles have sex - it's not anymore complicated than that. "Meaning" is something you pulled out of an orifice - it's a meaningless concept.

0

My children have become the focal meaning of my life. Specifically my youngest son. I do have my own life but what i have to share and pass on will most notably pass through my aon that I jave the grwates impact on his life.

1

No there is no fundamental purpose, we are just machines that our genes built so they are protected and multiplied, and they do it just because the ones that did could replicate, so it is a kind of random stuff.
BUT
We are intelligent, and we have conscience, so we can interact with the few meters around us, and have fun, pleasure, pain, sadness, desire.
For the universe it does not matter if you became a serial torturer and killer or a catholic saint, you are free to do it.
For the same evolutionary mechanism the societies that focused on a minimal level of cooperation worked and flourished, the civil rights era where we are now is the apex of that (and probably it will evolve more).
So the objective I choose for myself is primarily to live a good life and secondary, to live behind me a better world than I received, this includes improve my community, educate my kids (when I get some), Advance science etc.

0

The dictionary usually after each word ....

3

I do not find meaning. A person makes or creates their own meaning as they go along.

0

And why, exactly, do you need "meaning"? One persons goals/aspirations might not be anyone else's, ya know?

I think many people desperately need to feel their life has a meaning beyond materialistic or mundane things. That keeps them clinging to religion, charlatans, and other sellers of lies. I wish for a world free of religion and magical thinking. The only way it will be achieved is through an evolution of ideas. Atheism today is just nihilism, it offers no hope to people that can’t live without it or that are told to find their own. Since I want atheism to be a viable option, that can be successful, I am seeking new answers and engaging in all sorts of new ideas. That gives me meaning and purpose. ? Ultimately I’d like to leave the world a better place than I found it and I believe finding ways to allow people to digest and accept the truth is a great one.

@Lucignolo meaning comes from friends, family, hobbies/volunteering, even pets

1

The meaning of life is found everywhere, but life is the reason for life. It seeks to perpetuate itself, but that seeking is mechanical. The meaning, on the other hand, is self generated to varying degrees in the different species that make up the biosphere. I am reasonably certain that a bacterium finds no meaning in life and quite probably doesn't care in the least.

Humans, being one of the more complex forms of life, search constantly for meaning. For whatever reason, they tend to think there must be meaning to it all. Frequently, they invent meaning for themselves, then attempt to force their interpretation of meaning on all the others. They call that religion --- or government --- or both.

0

First off I have a major problem with the idea of anthropocentrism. We humans are not the be all and end all in the universe. The whole idea of human or personal meaning screams of arrogance.
I find meaning in learning and experiencing life. My latest crash and hospitalization had meaning (for me). So many stories came out about how people had similar accidents and had really bad conclusions. Yesterday, while gleaning a fruit orchard I was told of a local woman who went biking down a trail next to a shore. She crashed and went over a cliff an hit her head on some rocks. She has been hospitalized for over a week now and there will be repercussions. I am healthy and will have little of no after effects. I have health insurance and a supporting community. My meaning is in what I have not what I may have lost.
Here is an appropriate book on this subject from one important group. [shop.ffrf.org]

I wasn’t talking specifically about humans only. My question doesn’t just apply to humans as it asked about life and the universe itself. “Do you think life and the universe have a purpose?”. That is not anthropocentric.

I agree though. The universe isn’t there for us and wasn’t built for us or some sort of ridiculous similar idea.

@Lucignolo Yes I do feel it has a purpose - to evolve.

1

Life does not come with meaning and/or purpose. Not all people create their own meaning and/or purpose, some just live and then die, and some are very happy with the ride.

Personally I think that I need to create something significant that alters the way humans process information for the better and that is my purpose because I don't know of anyone else who is trying.

0

Dictionary!

1

Why does life need meaning?

It doesn’t, but then let’s resign to the fact atheists will remain a minority because you can bet 90% of the religious people I’ve spoken to understand atheism, understand the objections to the existence of God, but repudiate the idea that anything they do doesn’t matter, and that life is meaningless.

I wish we had a good alternative answer to their need for meaning.

@Lucignolo The answer is education, however, it is very evident in our society that one can refuse said education and one's parents can even refuse to offer it as well. I never thought we'd come this far though and I'm glad to see that in some European countries we make up the majority. Unfortunately, the US is always several decades behind.

3

Tis an interesting question to which many people will offer their opinion. Personally, I think that when I am engaged in some activity that provides an opportunity to learn and progress then I am doing something meaningful.. If you are looking for an answer to your question in some book then I think that you will inevitably be disappointed.

4

I don't need meaning in my life I don't know even if that is a possibility as there are so many variables & I don't really care - I put one foot in front of the other - I am 70 and in my life the next thing has always arrived for me - I have had many many enjoyable moments and feel I have contributed enough to my society - people generally think I am O.K. I just enjoy the minutes and hours; I like being busy . I like going to bed tired after painting or cleaning washing making patchwork quilts doing washing for other people who cannot manage the machines gardening is my favourite plus feeding the birds . I have a friend with whom i drink coffee every morning and we do the pub quiz and the puzzles in the paper that I buy- She is great at geography and maths and I am hopeless at them but I am good at other bits - we laugh like drains - its enough No I don't think the universe has a purpose, but I may well be surprised one day. I think the biggest meaning of my life was having two brilliant children and five incredible grandchildren - Their show now!

well said...

1

Why does there have to be meaning? It just is.

GwenC Level 7 Sep 10, 2018
3

The meaning I have found is knowing I'm free from the bs of religion/god. I have accepted that there is nothing after death and live life to the fullest.

0

When I read the Bible, I find "meaning"....Lol!

1

I try not to have meaning. It seems counterproductive to being nice to folks.

3

Observing nature and reading scientific research work.

0

Through a Biologist’s eyes ,the meaning of ALL life is to pass on our DNA. Evolution makes sure that the best Genetic material is chosen .For me personally,the meaning of life is the success of my children and their children in the betterment of Humanity !

2

I came across this quote a few months ago, it is attributed to Albert Camus; "The meaning of life is whatever I'm doing at the moment that keeps me from killing myself." I think that works for me.

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