I would point out that there were moral codes of behaviour in practice as long as there have been human beings alive and living collectively on earth and that is probably around 5 million years. Our primitive ancestors had to adopt a moral structure in order to form communities, it’s a matter of survival. Anyone who stole or transgressed from the group would have either been killed or cast out, which amounted to the same thing. It’s in our own interest to co-operate and act morally towards the others in our tribe. Even tribes in remote parts of Asia and South America today, who still have never seen or heard of the Christian god will have some sort of moral code which they live by. As far as Christianity is concerned, along with Judaism and Islam....they are very recent inventions by man, compared to the age of humanity, and therefore morality is very much older than these religions.

Atheists are routinely asked how people will know not to rape and murder without religion telling them not to do it, especially a religion that backs up the orders with threats of hell. Believers, listen to me carefully when I say this: When you use this argument, you terrify atheists. We hear you saying that the only thing standing between you and Ted Bundy is a flimsy belief in a supernatural being made up by pre-literate people trying to figure out where the rain came from. This is not very reassuring if you’re trying to argue from a position of moral superiority. - Amanda Marcotte

if you need religion to act righteously, someone failed to teach you right from wrong.

We all know what's right and wrong without gods. Some of us just don't know it.

My question would be how can you consider yourself a good person, if you need to be promised an eternal reward or threatened with eternal punishment to force yourself to be a decent human being?

I believe there are many things that are instinctive in human beings and morality has nothing to do with it. I believe we instinctively avoid deliberately harming other human beings.

you could ask your relative how s/he knows what is right or wrong WITH god -- how s/he knows that what she is calling god and calling right and wrong isn't just his/her devil playing mind games? how does s/he feel about killing animals? is killing animals okay? s/he seems to think so, saying a person is JUST another animal. does s/he not have an inner feeling about what is right or wrong, so that s/he can recognize it without consulting the bible in each and every case? does s/he not trust him/herself? and if god is the only reason s/he doesn't murder or rape or whatever, how much more moral an atheist must be, to be beholden to no god and even SO not murder or rape or whatever!

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A better question might be: "How can you know what's right and wrong or have morals with God"? Considering how much war, torture and murder have been inspired by religion throughout history, a God who gives children cancer, a bible that commands stoning a woman to death if she's not a virgin on her wedding, beating slaves to death, etc. And speaking of animals, God seems to have set up a system whereby most animals get nutrition and survive by eating other animals. I think we make much better decisions and act more humanely when we just use our own brains and our own intuition rather than relying on the invisible sky .

The US has the 8th highest homicide rate in the World. Yet, nearly 70% of the population identify as being " Christians". It would seem that it is the 'devout' who can't tell the difference between right and wrong!

I think that what they object to is that atheist morality does not include the “get out of jail (hell) free” card that they use. Also it is much easier to get their imaginary sky daddy to declare native Americans, negros, Moslems , etc as not people than they need to continue their policies. You cannot convince someone of something if their livelihood depends on them not believing it.

Animals have been shown to have morals. Presumably they haven't read the bible.

1. When was the last time you saw a horse murder another horse? They are animals yet don't murder each other.

How much dumber than a horse can a Christian be? If you explain ti slowly and wave carrot in their faces to keep their attention, they just might get it.

2. Submitting to "god's" declaration of right vs wrong, is no different from a man in a deeply partiarchal society threatening his wife with violence unless she rejects all her own opinions and parrots her husbands from now on.

For your relative. I know what's right and wrong because I'm part of an evolved species. The bible on the other hand isn't an evolved anything, it's a story book, you might as well find your moral compass from a Noddy book.

Murder is wrong because it does harm. If you can't figure that out without an imaginary friend to tell you so, I can't trust that you're mentally stable.

To think that morality comes from gods is wrong. Morality is an education process that starts with fear and ends in empathy with or without fear. Morality comes from the structure of the society you live in and is therefore ever changing. Some people are afraid that if they kill, god will punish them. Most modern people feel that if they kill (and get caught) society will punish them. If any gods are "writing on your heart" it is because you believed in them in the first place.

Believing morality comes from god is in itself a bit presumptious. Society developed morals before religion.

I would go with Matt Dillahunty's definition of morality. when you're talking about what is moral, What most people are referring to is well being. when discussing the topic of morality see if you can get the other party to agree that when they're talking about morality they're talking about well being. once you're both talking about well being you'll be able to objectively show why X is moral or immoral based on the standard of well-being.

If they don't care about well being, then when you say something is moral or immoral, you may be talking about something completely different than what the person you're talking with means when they say something is moral or immoral. for example, some people will say that something is moral because God said so. if you want to know more about this definition of morality you can search for Matt Dillahunty morality on YouTube and find a bunch of videos he discusses his views on the subject in Greater detail.

Instead of instructions from some self-appointed spokesman for “god,” most humanists take their cues from the fact that we are all human. If I don’t like getting punched, I rationally assume you don’t, either. If I treat you unfairly, I can expect you to do the same to me, so we both lose. The basis of humanity is rational thought and consideration of others (including the creatures we share the planet with). Anyone who needs an invisible sky fairy to tell them that murder is wrong is in serious need of professional help.

So to xtians, killing animals is OK?

There is morality and morality. Some have a book that tells them slavery is moral and it is OK to beat your slaves as long as they don't die for a few days. Then there is humanist morality that believes slavery is immoral. As for us being animals, moralists understand that we are animals (There are a few of the sciences that have given us that idea.) where some fools are gullible enough to believe we were made from dust by a magician less than 10,000 years ago! In the 21St Century people who pretend to be educated say women were made from a mans rib no less! Murder is morally wrong unless the person is a witch or a heretic, doesn't believe in sky faeries or wears cloths of different fabric depending on how low you set your morals.

We all know what is right or wrong. There is no need for a god or external adjudicator. There is plenty of immoral activity by all religious groups so the god/morality debate is a non sequitor.

Simple: You are the same person before and after you became agnostic or atheist. If you had a conscience before, you have the same one after.

Of course, murder is a specific form of killing: human upon human, premeditated and unauthorised. It's a lesser crime to kill another human accidentally or in the heat of the moment. It's perfectly okay (or at least morally justifiable) for one human to kill another on a battlefield, provided that their government has instructed them to do so.

How do I know it's wrong to murder? Well other than it just clearly being a terrible thing to do, there's the small matter of getting locked up for a long time or even executed myself, if I'm found guilty of doing it. While no system is perfect, law enforcement does a much better job of policing morality than religion ever has. For proof, look at which one prosecutes child sexual abuse, and which one just tries to sweep it under the carpet.

Religion might once have been essential for setting a functional morality, especially in a world with no CCTV and forensic evidence, where it was easier to go undetected as a criminal. But secular morality covers all of the bases these days, thanks very much. Religion just seems to excuse the nonsense that still goes on in some more backward nations, such as criminalising homosexuality or sex outside of marriage. There seems to be no shortage of people willing to commit crimes, in spite of the fact that many supposedly believe God is watching them and might punish them in the longer term. Perhaps the short term rewards are worth going to hell for. Who knows?

We know whats right and wrong by critical thinking and realizing what would be best for society. If something victimizes someone. Its probably wrong. And the christian morals are absolute garbage anyway

I have yet to meet a theist who can even define right and wrong. Typically, they'll say that god is good, to which I respond that god exterminated nearly the entire human race, so should we measure our goodness by how many people we have murdered?

It is impossible to be good WITH god. One must abandon our delusions to discover good.

I murder and rape all I want. I just don't want to. I consider morality to be the wellbeing of our species and our ecology. Things that increase the wellbeing of these things are good and things that hurt it are bad.

My question is how can you consider devine command to be moral? What if god tells you to kill your ? Would you do it? Is that good because god commanded it?