The difference is, religions can lead and gift people through voluntary action, but authoritarian (and sadly, non-authoritarian) governments must lead and gift people by initiating force against the willing and unwilling. So far, I can escape (mostly) the directives of churches, but I can't escape the directives of government. In that vein, I have more problems with the government than I have with any church.

I would disagree. Religions, with few exception, depend on fear to control people. Their actions aren't voluntary when threatened with eternal torture. I'm also not quite sure how you define "force" in the context of gov't.

I agree with your religion commentary.

By "force" in government, it's when police and armies enforce laws against people that haven't initiated force against someone in the first place. For example, arresting someone for possessing marijuana. But the biggest force government uses is the collection of taxes. That is how the government is then enabled to do its providing. As government has grown and the tax bill (and deficit, and debt, and unfunded liabilities) has grown, I'm becoming more and more of a slave to pay the taxes that government demands. Ultimately, if I don't pay my taxes, I go to jail. If I refuse to go to jail, the government will send in the police. If I resist, I could be killed.

Good analogy. Another key word is self-imposed. At least in this country (mostly), you have a choice to opt out of the religion, but you can't opt out of the government.

Exactly.

I'm implying that our government is more and more based on an idea that government, in its infinite wisdom, can initiate force that will always make the world a better place. That idea is mostly taken on faith. In a democracy, this means that the people have bought into this idea, and gave the go-ahead for government to initiate force. Those that do not believe in the idea are forced to obey them.

@GlyndonD And, you are dead wrong. You apparently do not live in the same country that I do -- the USA.

Forced taxation, to fund charities and causes that I don't particularly believe in, and to conform to social restrictions I don't believe in. What country are you living in, again?

@GlyndonD You are not a libertarian, but an anarchist. You are against government in any form.

Well, that's pretty arrogant for you to know what I am more than I do. No, I'm a Libertarian, and believe that the sole function of government is to retard the unwanted initiation of force by one person or group against another. That means I support government functions of laws, a court system, police, incarceration, and defense from foreign aggression. Anarchists do not believe in any of that.

Good one -- I've never heard that applied to government as a whole, but it fits perfectly.

Totalitarian governments are all-powerful. They've existed, and exist (North Korea). I don't want to go there, but I see an incremental creeping toward that result. I see this happening because, just like religion, people have blind faith that if government does it, or mandates it, it's good. I'd like to see as much skepticism directed toward government as that directed toward one's religion.

@GlyndonD Nope, even totalitarian governments have weaknesses, witness the fact that most are toppled by their own people. The few that survive any great length of time become markedly less totalitarian. They may revert, at which point their people often go into toppling mode (this may be the greatest danger China poses. Not being successful, but failing and unleashing catastrophic consequences on its fall). Skepticism of government is a built in component of democracy. As a voter it's you responsibility to question what the government has done. Most do this, as shown by the fact that we change governments. The creeping influence of government is, I suspect, a result of growing populations. When we lived in villages or clans we could regulate ourselves. As the groups got bigger more and more formal governance was required to keep things on a relatively even keel. Our groups continue to grow, hence our government continues to grow as we lose the ability to personally supervise the effects of our behaviour. This is due solely to the number of people on whom we potentially have an impact.

There is much waste and pain in letting your government become totalitarian, and then to topple it. I'd rather not go there in the first place.

I disagree that the cause of bigger government is the presence of more people. I think it has more to do with loss of confidence that people will behave correctly on their own, and a growing faith that government is the best solution for anything and everything. The message that "Government is Good" is preached by both liberals and conservatives (if only their particular components of government) and by the media such that democracy is choosing more and more government. With this, I believe we will reach a "Democratic Totalitarianism" eventually. And what will topple this totalitarianism? When the public realizes that the national debt (not just the deficit) is unsustainable, destroying the dollar and causing an international financial calamity.

Call this armageddon "The Armageddon of Government".

Belief in a god has had huge effect on reality. The problem with democratic government is that you are forced to obey its commandments whether you believe in them or not. This might not be so much of a problem if government were limited, but it keeps getting more and more intrusive into everything we do. At least with a church you can say, "Thanks, but no thanks."

@GlyndonD Disagree.. Government is the way society gets along. Religions cater to fears of the flock, yet have no legal bearing on those outside. Government depends on the majority will of the governed (or at least those making the effort to participate); thus it often ‘flip-flops.’ Religion is linear, rarely changing..

I participate in my government, in that I participate in the process. I do not worship it’s guidelines, nor does it always represent my desires. To the extent it ‘intrudes’ into our lives, that’s by majority consensus; the more complex the society, the greater need for rules … whether we like them or not.. Majority religious views may affect government, but unlike religion, it’s open to change.

Hitler came to power via a democratic government. Slavery was allowed and enforced by a democratic government. I believe we're headed toward a totalitarian government because liberals and conservatives are making deals to create more government (and less freedom) over those areas that each side wants controlled -- "Look, I'll let you create more laws to restrict that personal freedom if you'll let me take away these economic freedoms, okay?". As a libertarian, I'd like to see liberals and conservatives make deals to lessen government over those areas where the other side wants more government control (and less freedom) -- "Look, if you agree to not forbid the people to do this and that, I won't spend money or tax that and this, okay?".

Just because its in the majority, doesn't make it right.

@GlyndonD “As a libertarian” … say no more

The Pope used to have his armies to force allegiance, too.

They do not. God (government) is good; God (government) is supreme. You will obey God (government). You will believe in God (government). The only difference is that you may choose to give a donation to your church, but government demands its money, and you'd better pay it.

I see democracy as a constant struggle by a determined group to take over the government and force everyone to live the way that group says you should live. Much like a church, but this church you are not allowed to leave -- you must attend, follow its 10 (million) commandments, and pay your tithings (or else...)

@GlyndonD it is a lot of work, anyway you go...trying to 'check' OUR government! It feels like an extra job!!!

These other gods you speak of do not possess the power of ultimate force over the people. I am not forced to worship them. I am forced to worship and obey and to give tithings to the government.

@GlyndonD oh, yes they do. You only think they don't. And they've gone to a lot of effort over past decades to direct your angst at government. As illusionists know, it's called misdirection.

I don't need churches to build my angst against the government. But I also don't like the fact that churches are excused from paying property taxes. The way they get away with this is that they are a "non-profit", and all non-profits do not get taxed. Why do all non-profits not get taxed? Because certain people who have taken over the government feel that profit is evil, and that non-profit is good, we have the distinction over who is forced to pay taxes and who is not.

I, for one, do not think, and more importantly, do not believe, that profit is an evil thing. This belief of the government to subsidize the existence of non-profits has been forced upon me. I resent it. I resent it more than I resent religion because I am forced to cooperate with the beliefs of the current government.

There is also evidence that those societies with the least amount of government are the most successful. Not only do I want freedom from what church elders want me to think and do, but I'd like freedom from those that have taken over the government and want me to think and do what they want.

I believe you need a culture of wanting to improve one's self, and freedom from government edicts, for a society to thrive the most.

Again, it all boils down to Faith and Reason: Do you have enough faith in government to believe they will create and effectively enforce laws that will permanently improve society, or does your reason tell you that government initiating force to get people to do things its way is not a good idea in maximizing the good of society. I fall into the latter category, for much the same reason I reject an enforced religion.

That's what I'm thinking. Religious people like government because it reminds them of their god, and non-religious people like government as a god-substitute. So, here I am not wanting to be involved with the Church of Government, either.

fuck no

I am on guard for that myself...I want to view all government systems with open mind...not by blind faith.

And "We the People", in the form of democracy, are slowly but surely overthrowing the freedoms that were enshrined in the Constitution. Our ancestors escaped the unwanted force of churches and kings, only to give themselves to the unwanted force of The People who appropriated the government to force people to live the way of The People.

Democracy is paramount to any ideology (such as mine), but it is disheartening to see democracy be the cause (and justification) of having to live in a totalitarian society.