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As an atheist, I think Homosexuality should not come into mainstream. What's your take ?

No offence, but my opinion is homosexuality is psychological. I'm straight turned from homosexual, it all happened accidentally. I went through the studies, none had a proof that it's genetic. I've only one explanation to what happened with me & i.e. homosexuality is psychological.

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sourceofdesire 6 Nov 18
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91 comments (51 - 75)

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1

Over the years (I am in my 60’s) I have had many LGB friends as well as hetero, and have come to the opinion that at least 1/2 of the human race is bi-sexual, 1/4 is Homosexual, and 1/2 Heterosexual.
Now I realise this is a generalisation, but being the extraordinarily complex beings we are, our capacity for adaptation and evolution is enormous.
Yes our sexuality may be psychological but the way we think cannot be separated from who we are in a physical sense.
Yes SOME people may choose to be homosexual due to abuse (sexual or not) by members of the opposite sex but it is understandable and is the exception rather than the rule due to environmental factors.
I think it is important to remember that we have had 2,000 years of christian/islamic/Judaistic indoctrination to combat on this issue and evolution takes time!
Should we not focus more on being loving and compassionate rather than who we do/don't have sex with or love for that matter.
Variations in sexuality are perfectly normal, if humans can be considered normal, are are only an issue because religion has made it so

1

Oh I just hate the natural tendency to to try to pigeonhole people into what befits a certain set of cultural conventions. I rather enjoy the new varieties of sexual identity that have sprung up in the last twenty years or so.

1

I don't care what a person's orientation is. I want all people to leave their romantic/sexual lives in their personal space. So I guess what I'm saying is not only should homosexuality not become mainstream, but heterosexuality needs to become less mainstream as well.

3

I think this is a ridiculous fear. For one, more acceptance isn't going to make more people gay. More importantly, though, who cares if it does? How does it affect your life at all? The worst that could happen is that you'll feel uncomfortable, but that says more about you than it does them.

2

As an "ex-homosexual", you left "the faith" because it distressed you horribly in some way.
The overwhelming guilt feelings that being homosexual caused you were derived from the fact that loved ones, friends, and even strangers were distressed by your sexuality, and this bothered you intensely, so that was your motivation to discontinue the practice. As a non-homosexual, your feelings of extreme guilt have now diminished considerably, and you find that your new sexual behavior is coming as a great relief to your associates who formerly were so put-off by your past homosexuality. This feels good, and as long as you feel this way, you are likely to continue to remain celibate (or putatively "heterosexual" ), because of how much it pleases your loved ones and those you surround yourself with. Living your life to please others WHO WOULD HURT YOU EMOTIONALLY IF YOU DID NOT is one way to find comfort in your life, and I'm glad it's working out for you.
However, you should keep in mind that sexual behavior is a fundamental physical and emotional human need, and suppression of those feelings may require the use of benzodiazepines or other pharmacological assistance, which is okay, I guess. There's also hypnotism. Can I just throw this out there:
Has anyone yet found the cure for heterosexuality? Or the cause? Because once these are thoroughly understood, I think that we'll be much farther along the road to determining the exact, scientific causes, and thus perhaps, a "cure" for homosexuality, too.
Best wishes to you with your newfound heterosexuality.
P.S.- Do they also have "conversion therapies"
available for people who are afflicted with
heterosexuality?

3

Ok people. You probably see by now that there is a "hole" in this person's ability to process. Yes, condoning and accepting homosexuality probably will lead to what appears to be more homosexuals. Why? Because people will feel more free to fully explore sexuality itself, thus expanding the possibility of preferring sex with a same sex partner, and because there will be "more" OPENLY gay people. But so what? Even if the number reaches 50% the world is not going to collapse. There is a strong desire to to have offspring even among homosexuals, so humanity would be in no danger of becoming extinct.

Secondly, he is worried that the number should be kept to 10%, and to control that, society should continue viewing homosexuality with disdain, suppress education about it, and make those who may have that proclivity feel not free to choose it. Other than that, he doesn't care one way or the other.

There is something very wrong with a person who can't see the flaw in that line of thought...and all your responses haven't motivated him to reconsider or move off his position. I do however applaud your patience. You're a classy group.

2

No offense but homosexuality is not specifically psychological. It does come in a wide spectrum. As such, psychology does have a role but so does biology. Your personal anecdote has no bearing on anyone else, even if it was believable, which it is not.

I'm sure that homophobia shows no specific preference for the believer but I do normally think that an agnostic or atheist would strongly question the prejudice behind homophobia and would easily observe that homosexuality can be spotted in people without them knowing it or at least openly sharing it. That feminine traits and behavior are found in men and masculine traits in women, only some of which are truly homosexual indication. It does make sense that if you understand nature, homosexuality is just one part of the bell curve. Nature would prefer heterosexual just because it means reproduction but a female with some small masculine traits but otherwise a feminine person who has offspring will pass both traits on to both male and female offspring and they may not be as clear as Mr Macho Man and Ms Prissy Girl when they grow up. Some might be a little on the fence or only attracted to the opposite sex.

If you understand that, then you have to acknowledge that your opinion about how someone else feels has no relevance except to you. Maybe they might be convinced to act heterosexual if they are really somewhat bisexual, especially if they are confused about what they are feeling. In the end, the same traits will manifest themselves, confusing them and possibly causing further problems.

What I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is that a homosexual cannot choose their sexuality any more so than a heterosexual person. So no matter how much you want to help them, leave them alone and mind your own damned business.

1

Well, now that I have looked at your profile, I see some of your viewpiont on "bars" and "holes" is also probably skewed because you live in India, not the United States.

With a caste system in place, I am surprised your viewpoint is a open as it appears to be.

6

You can think what you like about homosexuality, but science, which deals in unbiased facts, shows that homosexuality is a normal, natural, and common aspect of many species. The LGBTQ community will not be pushed into the shadows and background of society to sate the raging insecurity of others' ignorance. Not anymore.

3

9% of all species are gay. Or at least that is what I was told. Whether it is psychological or physiological I can't say. If two people are happy to be with each other and were lucky enough to find each other in this world. I say more power to them, leave them alone to enjoy each other. Key phrase leave them alone. Their relationship is none of my business.

1

It's not genetic, but it's not psychological either. If you wanted to say it was anything I would say that it's psycho-social. However, ALL sexuality is a result of psychological and social situations and upbringings. I'm a sociologist, and a believer that we are born effectively tabula rasa, so we aren't anything at all until our environment makes us into it. Of course, there are differences that exist in people from the very start (genetics), but I don't believe that any gene, or set of genes, could cause one to be a specific sexuality or not, but I wouldn't argue that some people may be entirely non-predisposed to certain types of sexuality thanks to their nature, but realistically I still believe that sexuality, like all aspects of identity, are far more nurtured than anything to do with how you are born. So yes, I agree that homosexuality isn't genetic; you aren't born gay, but equally you aren't born straight; and I don't see why the fact why it shouldn't become 'mainstream' really - if people are happy being gay, and feel attracted to males (whatever the reason) then there shouldn't be an issue with it.

2

What is right for you may or may not be right for others. You don’t get to judge what is right or wrong for them, only for yourself. It is the same deal with religion, what is right for you may or may not be right for others.

CS60 Level 7 Nov 21, 2017
2

Do you really wanna oppress people?

2

When I was a younger man I was taught it was EVIL. Now I see nothing wrong to wanting to please another person of the opposite sex or the same sex. I find that doing oral on a guy that wants it is very satisfying to him and me.

3

If homosexuality is 'psychological' then so is heterosexuality.

With that in mind, when did you decide to "be straight"? What choices other than straight did you consider? Why did you choose to be straight, rather than bisexual, or homosexual? Did you consider being genderfluid or non-binary at all? If not, why not?

My empirical knowledge from my limited experience growing up in a family with 8 children suggests that the upbringing for the first 10 years is the most important factor in the basic beliefs and attitudes towards food, sexuality, race … the whole nine yards. Most likely, if you had been brought up in a different setting, you would not think that homosexuality is “psychological”, and the results from your poll suggest the same (IMHO, of course).

That is also why we should treat religion like alcohol, and ban its consumption until the age of 21.

Some lions in Africa are homosexual (as are many animal species). It is quite natural. [tinyurl.com]

"Bar" and "hole"? You aren't comfortable even talking about sex, are you? Religion has cast a bad spell on sex and sexuality in the US and that is a very bad thing. If men were more comfortable about their sexuality and not ridiculed for not being 'masculine' or 'manly' we would have fewer sexual assaults and a happier bunch of men. Being naked (in and out of public), having sex, having children and breastfeeding are all NATURAL, and none should have any type of negative connotation associated with it - just as which vegetables you eat have no connection to your masculinity. (You eat corn? You fucking PERVERT! You eat lima beans? What kind of man ARE you? You like cauliflower? You probably eat kale, too, you sick m*therf#ckr!) IMHO, anyone who worries about someone else's 'bar' or 'hole' should stop putting their nose into other’s business, and mind their own 'bar' and 'hole'.

You may not have studied history a whole lot, but there have been mainstream societies (like ancient Greece) where the mainstream 'norm' was to have sexual relationships with men and women, boys and girls. Since the ancient Greeks have contributed so much to our society, should we accept their 'norms' as ours? Who decides what is 'norm'? Also, many of the men who answer questions on polls don't answer truthfully, which skews the 'norm', so we probably don't even know what the 'norm' really is. If you trust pornhub.com's information (and why shouldn't we? They had 23 BILLION hits in 2016 alone - 44 thousand visits per minute) they say that the most religious states in the US spend the MOST time on their site, and men are 63% more likely to search for “transgender porn” than woman. So, how do you rate 'norm' now? It sounds like most of the information you use for deciding what is the 'norm' is incorrect.

"In classical antiquity, writers such as Herodotus,[1] Plato,[2] Xenophon,[3] Athenaeus[4] and many others explored aspects of homosexuality in ancient Greece. The most widespread and socially significant form of same-sex sexual relations in ancient Greece was between adult men and pubescent or adolescent boys, known as pederasty (marriages in Ancient Greece between men and women were also age structured, with men in their thirties commonly taking wives in their early teens).[5] Though sexual relationships between adult men did exist, at least one member of each of these relationships flouted social conventions by assuming a passive sexual role. It is unclear how such relations between women were regarded in the general society, but examples do exist as far back as the time of Sappho.[6]

The ancient Greeks did not conceive of sexual orientation as a social identifier as modern Western societies have done. Greek society did not distinguish sexual desire or behavior by the gender of the participants, but rather by the role that each participant played in the sex act, that of active penetrator or passive penetrated.[6] This active/passive polarization corresponded with dominant and submissive social roles: the active (penetrative) role was associated with masculinity, higher social status, and adulthood, while the passive role was associated with femininity, lower social status, and youth.[6]"

[en.wikipedia.org]

2

If it doesn't negatively impact you or anyone else in any meaningful, practical way, then you have no good justification for disapproving of it. I support it because it doesn't affect me in any way and thus I have no reason to oppose it. I'm curious what secular justifications you can provide.

So I don't have to read every comment here, please tell me specifically.

9

What's my take? My take is that you're a bigot. It's none of your business who someone else loves.

Wrong. Hate hurts all of us.

@Atheopagan do you hate bigots? Or do you call the hate polite disdain, or a sincere wish they could be enlightened like we are?

The only thing we should not tolerate as a society is intolerance. See the work of Karl Popper in the 1940s. [en.m.wikipedia.org]

2

Is this supposed to be an argument? It doesn't seem to "hang together." What are you trying to say?

No "marriage" should be recognized, at all, period. Marriage is a chuch institution, and has NO place in civil society. Civil Unions, on the other hand, should be the ONLY recognized union (but being a polite, civil society, allowing marriages to be recognized as a civil union is the nice thing to do - but they are not a civil union until the paperwork is done and filed).

And it has been shown over and over again that gay couples are on average: longer lasting unions with a lower divorce rate; are wealthier; more stable homes and just as loving as any straight couples. Using the data avaiable, everyone should be pleading to allow gay to marry because they offer a better alternative to 'traditional' marriages..

3

It doesn't matter if homosexuality is genetic or psychological, mainstream or not. Just let people do their own thing, whether it's homosexuality or whatever else they're into (provided it's between consenting adults, yada yada).

Why shouldn't it be taught about in school?

6

I don't have any sort of personal stake in what two people do together as long they are consenting adults.
In fact, no one does except the people involved.

@sourceofdesire I hadn't heard of that. Are these schools trying to make kids homosexuals?

3

In my non-scientific reply: There are many forms of animals, not just humans, that demonstrate homosexual behavior. I believe it's around 10% of humans. It's 'abnormal' because only a small percentage have this trait, but if we start selecting who we accept or don't accept due to whatever trait, how does that make us better animals?

@sourceofdesire I apologize, but I'm still not getting your point. Are you angry, homophobic, and worried that the 10% will corrupt the 90%?

3

Human sexuality and sexual orientation are not simple things that can easily be categorized.

I've read a great deal and studied a great deal in college (my BA was in Sociology), and I think the best contribution to start understanding it was the Kinsey scale, which said you weren't this or that but fell on a continuum. Most gays have had sex with the opposite sex, and most straight peopel have had at least one same sex experience.

I came to my own definition, in part based on a story one of my college professors told me. She told about haw a guy was first in an opposite sex relationship, but then was in a same sex relationship and then in an opposite sex relationship, and every time he felt like he was in love and each time he also felt like his orientation had undergone a change. It was especially hard to first come out as gay and then gome out to his gay friends as actually beign straight after all.

Now before going on, I'll explain my thoughts on sexual orientation. I dotn' define it by who, or what gender, a person has sex with, but rather by what gender(s) a person develops those feelings, which we refer to as "falling in love", for. It is not too complicated. If you only fall in love with the opposite sex you are straight, if you only fall in love with persons of the same sex as you are then you are gay, but if you are capable of falling in love with either gender, then you are bisexual. Where you fall in the middle of the Kinsey scale woudl determine the likelihood of how often your relationships are with which gender(s).

From what you describe above about first beign "gay" and then becoming "straight", to me would mean you are not at either far end of hte Kinsey scale but land in the middle, and are likely bisexual.

The person describe by my professor above was also bisexual, but would only focus on one gender at a time. This is likely related to a "serial monogamy" behavior, but not much work has been done studying persons who feel their orientation has changed. Those that have been done,m usually have found that feelings for one gender or the other (the gender opposite to the current relationship) has been repressed.

I think that the sex drive must not be primarily viewed in terms of pleasure, but in terms of scope. The genitalia of both men and women have a purpose, and that is the reproductive one; the fact that the act in itself brings a fantastic amount of pleasure must not be taken out of its normal context. One cannot procreate outside one's species, nor cannot bring forth offspring performing the sexual act with a person of the same gender. I used the word "normal" not to label a "category". I consider normal, for instance, to disgorge the stomach contents when you feel you've been (food-)poisoned; but bulimia, the habit to vomit regularly lest you should not gain weight is not... normal. So is anorexia (not eating enough fearing the same weight gain). They are both considered emotional disorders. So should it be the case with homosexuality. Given the great pull of the natural sex drive, there's no wonder that in some cases the individual mistakes the "signals" and envisages the possibility of a sexual relationship with someone of the same gender. I do not know, and I would personally refuse to try to understand how they make this work. I consider that the sexual attraction inside the sphere of the same gender is un-natural. As I cannot know whether homosexuality could ALSO be due to a genetic predisposition, I will always be reserved and unwilling to judge a homosexual couple who would be minding their business. What they do in their own bedroom is of no concern to me. It nevertheless pains me to know that there are children raised in homosexual couples. Our century discovered new facets of acceptance and tolerance. I am for tolerance - but I will never CALL the un-natural as natural. The type of intimacy one has - as sourceofdesire put it - is indeed one's business and no one else's. But if the intimacy we talk about is sexual, then I must say that in my book there are those which are normal (between two consenting adults of different gender) and those that derive their sexual pleasure any other way, recte: more than 2 people involved, rape, homosexuality, kids convinced to have sex, zoophilia, necrophilia etc. I reiterate that I consider sexual excitement as licit and natural as long as it coincides with its natural purpose: Attraction to the opposite gender. If that is not the case, I consider that a man that is sexually aroused by something or someone else than a woman (and vice versa) is defeating Nature's purpose with him or her. We are intelligent and free beings, but to work against Nature and call it emancipation... that could hardly be even called a stretch. To conclude my take on the poll: 1. To punish the homosexuals? NO, let them be what they want to be, as long as they don't start teaching our kids that what they do is perfectly normal, natural and acceptable. It is NOT and will never be. 2. Homosexuals should have all the (common sense) rights heterosexuals enjoy. Although I confess that if I saw two men kissing or walking while holding hands it would freak me out; not in the sense that I would start boo-ing or cast disapproving glances; I would probably blush and pretend I didn't see anything. As for the 3rd point, I made my point. P.S. I have a homosexual friend and I like his company. He is discreet and so am I. I really don't know why anyone should make so much ado, as Shakespeare would have it, about... nothing. 🙂

I must add: The friend I mentioned in my P.S. is discreet in the sense that he doesn't mention anything about his sexual orientation that he knows might make me uncomfortable, and I am discreet in the sense that I do not embarrass him by remarks meant to point disparagingly or ironically at the same point of silent contention. Far be it from me to annoy anyone about this (and anything else). I do not despise my fellowmen for having different views than mine; we can always have an agreeable talk; true love is not erotic. Love is a principle, not an emotion. Treat others as you would have them treat you: respectfully, kindly, with appreciation. One must not necessarily agree with another in order to show love. I do avoid the ill-mannered, the violent and the crude though.

I didn't mention it in my first reply, but there are many studies that show a correlation between some genes and sexual orientation. Some genetic markers are virtually unique to gay persons. Hoiwever, we can't say conclusively that sexual orientation is genetically determined... not yet anyway. We cn say that current evidence indicates that it is highly likely that sexual orientation has a genetic component. We do have enough evidence to say that. What complicates things, is the (relatively) recent study of meta-genetics. We all have a bisic genetic code, but while the fetus is still in the womb, some genetic markers get turned on or off depending on what the mother experiences during pregnancy. There was a very significant long term study that came out of hte former USSR, that showed that women wh ounder went a great deal fo stress in thne seocn trimester, was morel likey to produce homosexual offspring.

Most likely way back in our evolution, when time between birth and the ability to reproduce was very short for whatever animal we evolved from, there was likely an advantage to species survival to produce homosexual offspring when times were difficult, so that over population would not result (and basically eat all the food to a poitn where the species would starve itself out) If homosexuality were limited to humans, you could argue psychological causes pretty easily, but it is pretty ubiquitous in the animal kingdom, which suggests there was an advantage way back in evolutionary history.

Please not that there are a lot of "qualifiers" in the above description/explanation. So this is not proven theory, but it does fit pretty much all the known facts.

4

To sourceofdesire:
One of the things about progress is becoming more open to alternative modes of existence. You don’t have to agree, but you need to live and let live.

5

1 in 20 humans have different preferences than the rest. Wot's the big deal? as trudeau senior said many moons ago" the nation has no place in people's bedrooms"

4

Same sex attraction is not contagious. It is not an aberration. There have been people who felt attracted to same sex partners, whether casual or as dedicated partners since the dawn of mankind. You cannot legislate morality or interpersonal attraction.

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