Agnostic vs Atheist
I need help understanding... I’m in a Facebook group for Atheists/agnostics and there is almost a daily battle going on about not being able to be BOTH! So I need help with understanding where I stand... I don’t BELIEVE in any god, I don’t even care to. Secondly, no, I can’t prove if one exist or not...SO WHERE DO I FALL?
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28 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.Not this argument again!! There is never a week goes past that we don’t have somebody posting about it. Yes..you can be both, I am. It’s quite simple, an atheist disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods; an agnostic believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God. One refers to belief (atheism) and the other refers to knowledge (agnosticism). If both these positions describes the way you think then you are both, and if anyone tells you different then they are incorrect.
Marionville
Level 10
Dec 4, 2019
6
Dictionary defines Agnostic as "A person who believes nothing is known or can be known about the existence or nature of God..."
@Flowerwall I just stated these exact words..why did you feel the need to repeat them back to me?
@Marionville Both refer to belief, you said one did. I think of them as being separate.
@Flowerwall I have given the exact dictionary definition,
@Marionville So at some points you think God is possibly there, but it's unproven?
@Flowerwall Anything is a possibility...it’s called having a mind which is open. If proof presents itself then one would have to consider the possibility. I think it’s unlikely, but not impossible.
You can be anything you want.
You don't have to wear a label. Especially a label other people like to
keep changing the definition of to suit their own agendas.
I don't believe in ANY gods. I am an atheist.
It's really simple for me.
I have no questions. Unless and until credible, verifiable PROOF of the existence
of ANY god can be presented, I have NO reason to change my position.
I'm also an anti-theist. I believe ALL religion is EVIL and cannot be permitted
to influence public policy.
I also believe that the religious indoctrination of children should be classified as
a felony.
You get to make your own decisions.
KKGator
Level 9
Dec 4, 2019
4
Wouldn't that be advocating totalitarianism?
@Flowerwall What are you talking about?
@KKGator "religious indoctrination of children a felony" You would want the government to have control over beliefs?
@Flowerwall No. Just don't allow people to indoctrinate children.
If people want to believe in that bullshit, fine.
It just shouldn't be forced on children.
How is that a problem?
@KKGator Because that would involve the government having an unreasonable amount of control.
@Flowerwall It would be protecting children from being harmed by religious indoctrination, religious violence, and sexual predators. That's what government and laws are SUPPOSED to do. Protect the weakest and most vulnerable among us.
It's not "an unreasonable amount of control". It is the precise purpose of government.
@KKGator sexual mutilation of baby boys and young girls is religion in action which government should prevent or punish perpetrators as a message warning to future perpetrators.....if an adult wants to amputate his prepuce or her clitoris THAT IS ADULT FREEDOM children lack consent to such self abusive religion
@Larry68Feminist Another reason no child should be subjected to religious rituals. Or procedures which has their roots in religious rituals.
@KKGator however the fucking religious will cherry pick this logic ONLY TO PROTECT ZYGOTES EMBRYONIC GOO AND fetal parasites forcing all women to stay pregnant....NEVER PROTECTING WOMEN from harm during rape and pregnancy
@Larry68Feminist Yep
@KKGator the amount of harm done by this attempt to do-good would in no way justify this!
@AnneWimsey We're so far down this thread, I'm not sure what you mean.
@KKGator forced indoctrination is just as evil as the opposite!
@AnneWimsey Okay, gotcha. My point was that children shouldn't be indoctrinated, period.
I don't know that there really is an "opposite".
Adults can believe or disbelieve whatever they please.
As long as children are left out of it.
Granted, I don't really see that as being a any kind of real possibility.
@KKGator religion is infant boy brutal felony sexual assault and vicious rape of girl genital flesh....I will NEVER pretend religion is an unregulated freedom...religion is like cannibalism that must be eradicated anywhere it is discovered harming children.....far worse than sexual sadism in adults....learning to love pain is part of military culture.....if you want world peace, don't breed the next GENERATION of raped rapists
@Larry68Feminist I get it, Larry. You're preaching to the choir.
I really don't need further convincing.
@KKGator @AnneWimsey does
@Larry68Feminist No, she really doesn't. Not even a little bit.
Besides, even if she were to disagree, she gets to do that.
@KKGator thank you for this....surely you know there are many religious enablers on here who beat up on genuine Atheists ....I have been blocked by many of them
@Larry68Feminist @AnneWimsey is most definitely NOT one of them.
I also do not see "many religious enablers" here.
I do not get beat up on by anyone, and I'm definitely an atheist.
@KKGator I cannot do screenshots on my phone here but many Agnostics here equate Atheism as a religion and keep religious trolls around to bash them too.....classic fascist liberalism bigotry against true honest Atheists resisting entrenched professional academics.....telling me to seek a shrink last week is a fact from their ilk ....my crime was identifying the shortage of Atheist doctors calling her bluff....it may just be intended towards men and sheathed in a quiver from women
@Larry68Feminist Okay, I get it. You feel attacked by some, but try to look at it this way, FUCK THEM.
Don't take everything they say to you to heart.
If someone tells you that you need a shrink, consider the source.
You know, and I know, that atheism is NOT a "religion". It is the exact opposite, but for some, the idea of it just makes some people SO uncomfortable, they have to attack it.
Some of them won't listen to anything that runs counter to what they believe.
Instead of trying to convince them otherwise, fuck it.
Choose your battles. This site is just like real life, and every other place on the internet. It's filled with people who are not going to agree on everything.
That's just the way it goes.
Or, you can argue/debate, or otherwise clash, with everyone who doesn't share your ideas, positions, and feelings on things.
The choice is entirely your own.
@KKGator of course you are 100% correct and I don't take personal attacks seriously....the perpetrator replied to your post in opposite fashion to me .....that was my only purpose in preaching to my choir YOU there next to hers
Do you enjoy being pigeonholed? Why would it matter if you labeled yourself or not?
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Dec 4, 2019
5
Words matter birth names matter communities matter....depends upon who is selling fake dictionaries circumcision and conforming to sexual mutilation of young girls ....it is a deadly rapacious religious world and Atheist communities are defining innocence rights while Agnostics are claiming academic neutrality
@Larry68Feminist ummmm, what? It might be time to talk to a doctor, and I am Not being snarky!
@AnneWimsey ok, you choose academic while I am a healthy Atheist not talking to religious doctors
@Larry68Feminist oookkkaaayyy, you inquire as to the religion of a doctor? Would you like it if they did the same to you?!?
@AnneWimsey Seriously ? There are doctors who would REFUSE TO GIVE WOMEN LIFE SAVING ABORTIONS.....THERE are many religious doctors who are incompetent quacks if treating an Atheist.....same goes for nurses and pharmacists EVEN MASSAGE therapists are religious nuts who would chant or prEy during a massage....I HAVE ZERO religions and if a doc asked me assuming I was religious ANYTHING I would seek a new doctor for my infection, arthritis or injuries
@Larry68Feminist glad I ain't you, buddy.......
@AnneWimsey I am sad to read of your enabling evil religionists dominating our society with your blind trust of "professionals"
@AnneWimsey I won protection FOR SECULAR MEDICINE from the US Sup Ct in half measure due to sentiments prevalent @ law like yours
@AnneWimsey obviously "we" won't win the other half of secular medicine.....taxpayers and rate payers CANNOT afford tax exempt billionaire nuns owning 464 catholic hospitals in a future national healthcare system for all....BUDDY?
I thank you all for your responses. I’m new here and I’m sort of a novice at associating with others that feel or think the same way that I do when it comes to these topics. It was NOT my intention to regurgitate a topic, I’m simply asking questions to seek and understand and to me asking a question removes any ignorance that I may have. Thank you all!
Donne
Level 5
Dec 4, 2019
2
Sometimes it takes rehashing old concepts in New ways to refine out clarity in our message. It never hurts to go over something again.
This topic frequently gets discussed and we can never know if there is a God for certain, so always wonder.
Where do we fall??? Only ever in the direction that gravity dictates. Every time.
Gravity is not my friend lately. Sure, it keeps the atmosphere on this pesky globe and the south pole ice cap from falling off into space (we all know the northern ice cap is just fine - it's on top). But other than that, falling is quite overrated.
LatentumCattus
Level 6
Dec 4, 2019
4
Columbus fell into the Indian Ocean nearest Cuba when the local Arowaks failed to tell Columbus just how stupid lost and murderous he was
I am an agnostic atheist. And, anyone who says you cannot be both lacks some understanding.
I am an atheist because I do not BELIEVE any gods exist. Nothing about me thinks that any god, in any universe, in any dimension, exists. And, atheism is a claim about belief, or lack thereof.
I am an agnostic--NOT because I think that there just might be some sort of god--I don't. I am agnostic because I accept that this simply cannot be known. And, agnosticism is a claim about knowledge.
I do not possess all of the knowledge of the universe, or universes; so, even though I absolutely do not BELIEVE there are any gods, I cannot claim to KNOW there are none. I can only say that science shows us that there is no evidence for any and that the universe behaves just as it would without any; so there is no reason for me to insert one (or more) or to believe that one might just possibly exist.
Joanne
Level 7
Dec 7, 2019
1
The assumptions that gawds gott gods are actual real words is your error leading to other people's conclusions.....we CAN know if a claim is rational with evidence.... when a claim is irrational and lacks any evidence the claim is dismissed by Atheists and assumed rational by Agnostics....however both Agnostics and Atheists clearly respond to believers dismissive of their alleged evidence
@Larry68Feminist . Yes, but we are still limited by our human brains. Granted, my human brain tells me there is no rational evidence for the existence of any kind of god (as we understand the word to represent)-especially ONE, almighty, all-knowing, creator god.
I think we can show clear evidence that discounts the existence of specific gods (such as the god of the Bible); but, because we do not have all of the knowledge of the universe, or universes, we simply cannot "know" whether some being, that we would define as a god, exists.
As soon as we say that we "know" no gods exists, it is upon us to provide the evidence--and that simply cannot be done. Again, I absolutely do not believe any exist. There is no reason for me to; but, I am agnostic in the sense that I accept that it simply cannot be "known." And, therefore I am an agnostic atheist.
if you don’t claim knowledge of whether or not a god exists, you’re agnostic. there are agnostic theists and agnostic atheists. i don’t understand why people think belief = knowledge. i’m technically agnostic about fairies because i can’t prove they absolutely don’t exist, but that doesn’t mean i believe they do lol
basher
Level 5
Dec 4, 2019
3
kimlaleona
Level 6
Dec 11, 2019
1
Many definitions of nothing zero vacuum.... Atheists are just one kind of person.....zero religion inside our brains
[philosophizethis.org]
The definition of god is broad unless your talking bout a specific one or an infinite thing that is beyond our understanding. I don't believe tht someone is eatching over me but I don't believe we came from nothing.
kimlaleona
Level 6
Dec 8, 2019
1
Two false assumptions: 1. gawd = a word 2. Matter was created .....religion was recently created and matter/energy has always existed in motion ....time is a relative assumption longer for some observers shorter for other observers in motion away or towards each other
You can be both.
When asked, I'll say that I am an Agnostic Atheist.
Atheist, because I in no way believe in any god (s), or any other kind of supernatural thing. Agnostic, because I can't prove it 100% either way.
TristanNuvo
Level 8
Dec 4, 2019
1
If you have no reason to believe in a god(s) if you don't believe in god(s) you are an atheist. simple.
As such you have no reason or necessity to "prove" anything, the burden of proof is on the one making the claim.
for me the label of agnostic is just a term used by those who want to hedge their bets, it is the secular version of Pascal's Wager
LenHazell53
Level 9
Dec 4, 2019
1
I think of an Atheist as someone who thinks "No, absolutely no God" Agnostics think "Could be, but it's not something we can know beyond what we see, the accumulated human knowledge and experience over time does not show us absolutely the answer is yes or no."
Flowerwall
Level 7
Dec 4, 2019
1
If you are worrying about that you lead a privileged life so the question is based in a neurotic sense of entitlement.
Label yourself whatever you like, your the only one that cares.
For clarity see Marionville’s response below.
Geoffrey51
Level 8
Dec 4, 2019
2
Aren't we all trying to figure ourselves, and the world around us, out?
@Flowerwall possibly but worrying about your self-imposed label creates further confusion as evidenced by the post.
Agnostic :- a person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.
Atheist :- a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.
blzjz
Level 7
Dec 4, 2019
2
I found it useful you posted this. Thanks.
Not sure of this need for labels. You either believe, you don't believe, or you're not sure.
Switchcraft
Level 7
Dec 7, 2019
1
All these labels are bullshit .I just don’t believe in god ! These people doing battle over this petty nonsense are a bad example of non believers .
HarrySlick
Level 7
Dec 5, 2019
1
just my 2 cents but. someone asks do you believe in a deity and its a yes or no answer. You are a theist or an atheist. As to the question of does someone really know for sure, nobody does but so from some perspective everyone is agnostic in that they don't know so it looses any and all meaning. When i hear someone say they are agnostic i think .. its kind of in the closet athiest
gonzo93304
Level 4
Dec 4, 2019
1
I think it's a distinction without difference. It's a definitional game, and a matter of philosophy of knowledge.
AtheistReader
Level 7
Dec 4, 2019
1
Believers fall and trap Agnostics into the PROOF question. You are an Atheist because the alleged word gawd is gibberish without meaning. Agnostics AND Atheists are the same without religions. BUT the A in front of theism and gnosticism means WITHOUT.... theism=religion..... gnosticism = knowledge.....you said it yourself....you don't want to prove or disprove gnostics or believers.....we Atheist demand proof EXACTLY WHAT AND WHERE these alleged gawd things might be.....since that demand has never been satisfied the alleged gods are nothing nowhere
Larry68Feminist
Level 7
Dec 20, 2019
0
I would simply ascribe to the following analogy. I am an agnostic by thought and an atheist by belief. That is to say, that I cannot prove or disprove that there is a God, but I do not believe that there is a universal God that created the universe or in the Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindi God etc.
Consciousness
Level 1
Dec 5, 2019
0
It is impossible to disprove a non falsifiable concept.
And most of proposed gods are non falsifiable concepts.
BUT...
It does not mean that the possibility to be true and false are the same. It means that a non falsifiable concept is useless and have no practical purposes.
That is the view of an agnostic.
The agnostic do not need to answer a question that per definition has no answer and thus is useless.
On practical terms and day to day decisions, the gnostic atheist (atheist for short) will behave the same as the agnostic. The difference is that the agnostic will not discuss existence of a divinity that is non falsifiable.
An agnostic can show the holes when a believer tries to "prove" it, but it won't claim that it does not exist, it will just claim that your divinity is on the same status and same "degree of proof" as any other, including one that i made out of my mind just now.
Agnostics are not in doubt, on the contrary, they refuse to talk about belief, they talk about the known, and they know that a non falsifiable god does not interact with reality thus is impossible to differentiate this god from an inexistent god, thus why bother believing or not?
Pedrohbds
Level 7
Dec 5, 2019
0
Sumarry.
Agnostic is not about doubt, is about knowing that is useless to even speak in believe or not.
An agnostic would say, "I cannot know whether a deity exists or not, and neither can you.
When the world and (greater) the universe, is 99% unknown to every human being on the planet. How can an Atheist be 100percent sure of a deity can not exist. All that can be said, is of 1% human limited knowledge of earth, for each and everyone of us is incapable of knowing about deity. Makes up only in degrees of ones thinking about how each person guessestimate if a deity exist or not. Otherwords, the non-believers including Atheist, are all agnostic in degrees of personal thinking of if deity exist. Personally I think, it's extremely highly improbable God's exist, but I am just a piss ant compared to the Universe.
Castlepaloma
Level 8
Dec 4, 2019
0
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