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Afterlife

I’ve recently became an Agnostic. I feel good about it, but at the same time I’m scared when it comes to death. I know death is certain. But I keep thinking of these holier than thou Christians saying you’re going to hell which I think is so narrow minded, but I keep having this thought that “what if they’re right? what if they’re right?” thinking in the back of my mind. I want to make peace with my decision of becoming an Agnostic, what do I do?

Gyffrey88 4 Dec 17
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0

what if they’re right?
What if the Egyptians were right and you end up in the Osirian realm of the underworld where if your heart is not lighter than a feather you will get fed to Ammit the half hippo half crocodile half lion eater of souls(I know! don't shoot the messenger), or Hades if the Greeks are right, or the Muslim paradise? Or nowhere if the Jews are right?
The after life myth is not exclusively Christian and if the Christians ARE right, it's okay because according to Jesus heaven is only temporary, because after a period in the grave or in paradise we will ALL raise from the dead (Minus our naughty bits) be glorified and live forever on earth (but with no sea) whether we want to or not.

4

You might read Ernest Becker's Denial of Death if you're of a philosophical bent. It's not horribly dense, and you can skip the sidebars on Freud. He wrote that book while he was dying, which made it more powerful. His basic thesis is that almost everything we do in society is an "immortality project". He does a good job of unpacking why we are so obsessed with it and come up with so many ways to (not really) "deal" with it.

In talking to fellow deconverts over the years I have noticed that the people who are bothered by these "what if they're right" questions are generally the same ones who didn't feel "saved" or feared losing their salvation when they were still believers -- even in sects that taught "eternal security" (once saved, always saved). They tended to answer every altar call they heard, "just in case". Or they leaned that way a bit anyway. I see it as a extra vulnerability to guilt / shame / fear of punishment. Might be a little, might be a lot. It may help to take a few steps back and rather than struggle with the fear of hell as such, explore your feelings around worthiness and guilt and shame and forgiveness generically -- not just in that specific and theological context. You may find a little more self awareness around the old tapes playing in your head will give you relief from the specific, religious manifestation of it.

Religion uses the fear of death, and the failure to deal with one's mortality forthrightly, as a "hook". You definitely want to learn to accept the fact of your mortality in a healthy way, more than you want to argue yourself out of "believing" in hellthreat.

Finally ... it's not uncommon for people struggling with these issues to have a particular malfunction with the notion of oblivion -- that they will cease, at some point, to exist. Some get so hung up on it that they somehow get the notion that it renders of of life meaningless; I've even seen it taken to the extreme that the eventual extinction of the earth or humanity or the heat death of the universe somehow makes life meaningless!

It has helped me to realize that this is a form of ego inflation and entitlement. It is what I call "living outside my scope" to demand immortality when I am but a mortal creature of time. A finite existence is not all downside. It means my suffering and existential weariness are finite and have an endpoint. It means the time left to me is all the more precious and to be treasured -- not less. Precisely because it's all I have. It helps me "keep short accounts" with others, to be kinder and more attentive to them while I (and they) are able to experience that.

Just a few thoughts for what they're worth; I hope they help.

3

Methinks that maybe your question is tangential to the real questions.

Instead of trying to reconcile the spectre of an imaginary afterlife to your actual life (square peg, round hole, indeed) - simply accept that once we pass on, the bio-electric neuro-chemistry breaks down, the thing that is "us" turns off and dissipates into nothingness and the organic remains reintegrate into nature at large once again.

When this process truly starts and the brain begins shutting off, the really messy stuff with the body begins, which is difficult and scary for the living to witness. If we are lucky (and many are), most of what we are is gone by that time as the brain floods the body with last of the mighty hormones that would ease the transfer.

Strangest thing, there were only two times I've witnessed fear in the faces of the dying - and both of them were 'true believers' and keepers of faith. So convinced were they that hell was ready to pounce upon them that they fought the process to the very last instead of letting go.

So, accepting this and instead of worrying about an afterlife - I ask myself, "What am I doing right now to make this life better? Am I doing good things? Am I enjoying myself? Can I make amends to those I have harmed? Should I? What's for lunch? What contributions can I make that will have a lasting, positive impact in the future? Which makes the better martini, vodka or gin? (actually, the answer is "gin", nevermind)".

Etc.

And while answering all those wonderful questions about living, I have found that I have lived. And that "ultimate" question of yours, well, that never really comes into picture.

@Bn4fE5 - Thank you kindly. The perspective and experience gives meaning to the idea "Life Goes On". And what fun it can be!!

3

I wouldn't worry. When you look at how the concept of Hell evolved in the Bible, you see that it wasn't part of the Hebrew tradition until messianic cults emerged and Christianity developed. There's nothing to indicate that a literal eternal torture pit exists, but the fear of such has kept people loyal to the Christian faith for millennia. But what if Christians are wrong and Islam is right? That's bad news for a bunch of people, too. Or what if everyone's wrong and there's a suffering afterlife for all of us? You could drive yourself mad trying to figure out every contingency, and it just wouldn't amount to anything except wasted time and effort. Live your life, try to be a good person in general (someone you're proud to be), and don't worry about the fear mongering; there's no reason to think anyone has any insight into an afterlife or that there's a cosmic torture chamber awaiting us. /2¢

Best answer for me.

3

Hell is here when one has to deal with fanatic religious nutters.

3

Problem is that so many of these christians (or other religionists) are willing to do anything to get to their promised land. Imagine a place full of vitriolic, murderous, arrogant, selfish and greedy people like themselves. Not exactly a heaven. One cannot find any sort of salvation by following someone else's dogma.

This is seriously one of the main things that helped me get past my religious beliefs. One day I realized I didn't want to spend all of eternity with my ex-husband so I needed to make some changes.The changes eventually led me to let go of my beliefs completely.

3

I don't concern myself with those threats.
Don't believe in any "afterlife".
Think those who hurl those threats are delusional.
I've got better things to do than to worry about my death, which I know is inevitable.
I don't think for one second that there's anything after this life.

3

To me, the idea of worrying about death, and "what ifs", is creating hell right now .

Wasted energy, as I see it, because no one will be able to give you an absolute answer - ever.

3

According to some, Hell is just really the absence of God.

Well, fuck, that's been me for about 38 years now.

3

Christ didn't believe in hell.

The current pope does not believe in hell.

Hell wasn't invented and added to the bible until the Renaissance.

It is good to fear death. Fight it. You live in a time where if you live long enough you can live forever. Fairy tales can be dangerous.

Good luck.

Have you been listening to Kurzweil?

@skado
Agnostic.com is my guilty pleasure, I don't usually give up time for leisure reading or videos unless it is on Agnostic. I didn't know who he was until you asked and I then looked him up. His ideas seem like an inevitable probability. I am sure they seem unlikely and far fetched to many. Thanks for asking, I will watch some of his productions in the future.

3

Think of all the fun people there

bobwjr Level 10 Dec 17, 2019
3

It is scary to reject a premise into which you have been brainwashed your entire life. There is no evidence to support the idea of hell. There is no evidence to support the idea that consciousness of any kind lingers after the brain dies.

Deb57 Level 8 Dec 17, 2019
2

"What if they are right?"

Why would they be right?
In my opinion, religious faith is a subset of narcissism: People under the delusion they tower above everything in existence, including other people. and that as such they have special knowledge denied everybody else.
Hitchens had a good quote for it. Something along the lines of: "Why would I believe god has granted you special knowledge, and denied it me?"

Secondly, if it is true, god is insane. He gave his message to ONE brutal desert tribe and expected the rest of the world to swallow that nonsense, indistinguishable from any fairy tale, with no evidence?
No one in their right mind would device such a trap. Even if Hell is real I'd be more worried about spending eternity with the madman who created Hell and made sure the vast majority of mankind would end up in it.

2

If a person today claimed to be a prophet and was hearing voices nobody else could her or seeing people (angles) which nobody else could see, you would most likely think the person were mentally disturbed, not a prophet in communication with god.

In ancient times those who suffered from mental illnesses were said to be "touch by god" or "the gods". Those who awere most functional of the mentally disturbed were said to be prophets. To give you an idea of just how functional a mentally ill person can be, John Nash, won a Nobel prize for his work in mathematics for work he did while suffering from schizophrenic delusions. Ron Howard made a movie about that called "A Beautiful Mind".

So, if we dont' believe peopel today are prophets in touch with god or the gods, why shoudl we believe that the ancients were any more in their right minds.

The whole afterlife is used to try to scare people into behaving well. It was the Zoriastrians, who conquered teh ancient Jews who introduced the concept of hell and eternal damnation, and because they lost the Jews adopted the beliefs into their own beliefs, which in turn later became a part of Chrsitan and Muslim beliefs. Before that Jews believed in a form of reincarnation, and there is some residue of that previous belief in their theology.

So, if it is a comfort to you, you could believe that those who believe in reincarnation may possibly be correct, as although in Western civilization hell and eternal damnation is a more common belief, if you look all over the world reincarnation is actually the most common per capita.

Or you may take to heart that virtually every religion teaches the same basic principle of "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", even if it is worded differently, the basic concept is generally the same in all the worlds major religions. Most of the wording difference could most likely be attributed to language and cultual differences which never translate well.

So, basically just be a "good person". Treat other as you would want them to treat you.

I don't believe in an after life myself, but I'd be unconcerned if there were one. Why? Because I live my life by that "golden rule", and I know that all the "holy books" were written by men who could not resist putting in their own beliefs prejudices and dogmas, and if there is a final judgment, it won't be by what some mentally ill desert goat herder thought was right in a different culture, time and place, more than 2000 years ago.

Just be a good person, and if there is an afterlife, it will take care of itself.

I hope this helps.

2

I have actually died twice, once by strangulation, once during a medical crisis.
It was quite peaceful and nobody is going anywhere, you do not even remember anybody, your mind is simply calm
Maybe if I had stayed dead I could tell you more, but i have NO fear of death since then.
. Ignore these idiots who tell you they saw relatives, bright lights, changed their lives, blah, blah, blah.

2

OK, what if they are right? Then you get to spend eternity with a bunch of judgmental,hypocritical Christians.

Sounds like Hell to me.

2

Easy. If it is morally outrageous for you to harm someone because they are unaware of what you know, then I'd say the people of tomorrow have one less thing to worry about. Don't fear the judgement of an uncertainty.

2

You have come to the right place to help you get over your religious indoctrination, so good luck.
There is no such thing as a soul or hell and even the pope has agreed on the second one.

2

What if they're right about what? Choking as you burn in a lake of fire for all eternity? Clearly it's a scare tactic. Effective, indeed. Death is most probably just like all the rest of the time you weren't alive. Wasn't so bad, was it?

2

Will it be worse than the hell the religious inflict on others because of their self-righteous beliefs?

2

I take comfort from the fact that, despite all their talk, fancy ornate buildings, dudes in silly hats, threats, promises, blackmail, fairy stories, and worthless assurances, religions know nothing more about death than anyone else, indeed probably less, so wherever your thinking goes, leave religion out of the equation. The only thing religion knows is how to make money out of fear of it.

And how to kill effectively in its name.

2

You are troubled by “Pascal's wager”.

Pascal's wager posits that humans bet with their lives that God either exists or does not.

Pascal argues that a rational person should live as though God exists and seek to believe in God. If God does not actually exist, such a person will have only a finite loss (some pleasures, luxury, etc.), whereas he stands to receive infinite gains (as represented by eternity in Heaven) and avoid infinite losses (eternity in Hell).

The argument against Pascal's wager is it is a preposterous assumption and is no proof of god’s existence.

[en.wikipedia.org]

2

Think scientifically. Is there any evidence at all supporting the idea of an afterlife? Not that I'm aware of. From all the study I've done, my conclusion is that when we die we die. There is no life after death. It's the end.

2

One interesting side note: Until the 5th Century, Christianity believed in reincarnation. Then, at a huge meeting that was held to decide what would be in the new testament, the group voted to get rid of reincarnation and, in it's place, strengthen the notion of burning in Hell for all eternity. Apparently, christians weren't scared enough because they thought they'd get another chance (in the next life). My answer to that? It's all make-believe.

2

"What if they're right" Who are "they?" Which exact religion's image of hell? What set of rules to make which god happy? Do Christians have any more merit to support their faith based supernatural claims over any other past, current, or future religion? There have been thousands of different gods and even within the Christian landscape, the sets of rules between churches vary greatly.

2

They're simply wrong. Heaven and Hell make no sense. Death is real and alarming but childish stories cannot satisfy an honest mind.

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