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Honest Question

In a lot of profiles I've read, people indicate that they identify as both an atheist and as an agnostic. Do you think it's possible to be both, and if so, how?

I am interested in what everyone has to say about this because I know there will be ideas that I hadn't thought of. I may not he able to respond to everyone but I will read what everyone has to say. Thank you.

LovinLarge 8 Aug 9
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34 comments (26 - 34)

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1

I Personally could not care less in what people identify as .labels are ridiculous and just adds to the confusion.I just prefer nonbeliever.

1

The only way that a person is both is that if he or she is at at a tipping point between the two and wavering back and forth.

Nope. That's like saying someone's at a tipping point between homosexual and transgendered. Two different things.

1

As an atheist, if incontrovertible evidence was found (not very likely) that god exists, I'd reevaluate my position. In that sense I am also an agnostic. However, since the odds of incontrovertible evidence bing found is astronomical, atheist is a much better description.

1

It is a redundancy, if you are not sure about the existence of god(s), you by definition doubt its existence.
If your doubts are honest you are an atheist, if they are not you are a theist.
Atheism is the position for bet hedgers and fence sitters.

EDIT Correction, first word of the last line should read
Agnosticism NOT Atheism

You mean NOT the position, right?

@LovinLarge None of that makes sense...

@JeffMurray It makes sense to him. If it makes sense to him, I'm not sure it matters if it makes sense to anyone else. Although it did seem like he left out a word but perhaps not.

I was asking people to walk me through their logic and many were generous enough to do so. I learned far more than anticipated from their responses. One thing I learned was that sometimes it is helpful just to think about what someone wrote rather than responding. Another is that whether I agree with any of them is unimportant.

@LovinLarge I have added a correction, thank you

@JeffMurray

Possibly, you meant to say, "The post makes no sense." "The post is nonsense." or "There is no sense to be discerned in that post."

In addition, the ellipsis neither is needed nor is it the correct punctuation, which ironically in and of itself "makes no sense".

@LovinLarge That's why I addressed you, not him. If I was looking for guidance on something, I'd like input on the subject itself as well as others' opinions on the suggestions given. For instance, if you were seeking advice on a quick way to add and subtract a lot of numbers, and while some people suggested a calculator there were a few that suggested an abacus, wouldn't you appreciate if that idea was denounced so as to not waste time and energy looking into it? If his response to you was valuable, my response should be as well. 😒

@LenHazell53 Not sure how what you thought I should write is any better for you than what I wrote, but sure. (Except, of course, for the fact that 'post' usually refers to the thing posted at the top and 'comment' or 'reply' would be the word for the nonsense you wrote.)
As for the ellipsis, they are used to denote an omission of words. In this case, it was an omission of, "it's not just the incorrect or missing word that's a problem." If you're going to correct people, you should know what you're talking about.

@JeffMurray If I didn't value your response, I wouldn't have used any of my time to address it. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt once but now you just seem like a troublemaker. I don't have time for such nonsense. Please make a positive contribution or move along.

1

Most people, whether believers or not, are agnostic — i.e., without knowledge. There are some, though, who do claim knowledge, and they are gnostic. Those who are gnostic and religious often claim some form of personal revelation. Within Christianity, however, gnosticism is rather rare because faith is such a hallmark of the religion (i.e., "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." John 20:29 [KJV]).

There is pure agnosticism, too, which gets us into the belief side of things. I think this sort of agnosticism is rather uncommon, as it is the belief that theism and atheism positions are equally likely — a 50-50 proposition. From my experience, though, the majority is at least slightly leaning one way or the other on the belief scale. On the belief side is theism, but there are other beliefs like deism that get lumped in here. On the other side is the rejection of theism, deism, etc., but for simplicity is merely called "atheism."

Atheism has a few different stripes. It is the lack of belief or the disbelief in God or gods. There is implicit atheism, i.e., the lack of belief that one might find in an infant or a puppy or a rock. This isn't very interesting as a label, as it just means that the subject never formed the belief either due to lack of ability or from lack of exposure to the concept. The other is the active, conscious lack of belief or the disbelief in God or gods; this is explicit atheism. And within explicit atheism are negative atheism (also known as weak or soft atheism), which is the rejection of the claims for theism, and positive atheism (also known as strong or hard atheism), which is the claim that no God or gods exist.

If the distinction between negative and positive atheism seems confusing, that's because it is — at least at first. But think of it this way: Theism is the positive claim in favor of a God or gods. Negative atheism is the rejection of that claim as having not met its burden of proof, without making a claim to the contrary. Positive atheism, however, is the positive claim that no God or gods exist.

The confusing part is negative atheism, so that's where I'll elaborate a bit. If my friend claims to have seen a unicorn, I'd be skeptical. They insist, though, that it was a horse-like animal with a colorful horn that sparked in the sunlight. I accept that my friend truly believes they saw a unicorn, but upon scrutiny they have no evidence. I can think of other explanations, like a costumed horse, or a dream that seemed real, or an optical illusion. There's no reason for me to accept the claim, no matter how sincerely made, that unicorns exist and my friend actually witnessed one. I'm not saying definitively that unicorns don't exist and that my friend is mistaken or lying, just that the burden of proof has not been met and I'm justified in giving their claim no credence. I can go about my life as though unicorns don't exist, but I stop short of saying they actually don't or that they cannot exist. Some people say that this is the same as pure agnosticism, but it differs because negative atheism is a rejection of the claim while pure agnosticism says that it's as likely as not that one or more gods exist. Those are two distinct positions.

There are other positions, too, like ignosticism, which is the notion that the question of whether any gods exist is meaningless because the concept of what "God" or "gods" are is too ill-defined to have a meaningful answer. On the belief scale, Richard Dawkins has his own that includes de-facto atheism, but I see that as more about degree of certainty (or lack thereof) than a clearly defined classification.

In the spirit of full disclosure, I'm an agnostic when it comes to knowledge, an explicit, negative atheist when it comes to general belief in God or gods, and an explicit, positive atheist when it comes to belief in some specific gods (e.g., Yahweh) for which I think there's strong evidence of them being human conceptions. I'm also ignostic to some degree, as generally the notion of God or gods is nebulous at best and it's hard to have a firm belief for or against something that is "beyond human understanding."

I hope this answers your question.

Wow. Thank you for your effort. I will try to get my head around that. "Try" being the operative word. My brain is a little rusty (not compared to most people of course) but really understanding that will take some effort.

Thank you for that amazingly well thought out essay on the subject.
How would you assess reincarnation which, unlike your example of a unicorn, has been investigated scientifically to some degree, and does appear (to some) to have a degree of validity? Would this cast in doubt the stance of the 'hard' atheist?

@Storm1752 I'd need to see the studies, methodology used, peer review, scientific support, critiques, etc. — but, even then, I'm not a scientist and my opinion on the matter should be taken with a grain of salt. Regardless, reincarnation is something I don't know how one would go about effectively and strictly testing, so I'm curious how it was done or attempted. It seems that it would require that the subject have verifiable, overwhelmingly detailed and intimate knowledge of someone else's life with absolutely no external access to that information. I think that would be very difficult to illustrate, especially for a large-scale study with many participants, but perhaps not impossible under the right conditions. That still would not be sufficient, however. Even if it were possible to show deep knowledge of someone else's life in that way, I think it wouldn't immediately point to reincarnation as the explanation. Off the top of my head (and I'm not suggesting any of these are more or less likely), someone might have visions of someone else's life, or they might commune with the dead, or they might have had a memory implant from aliens, or they might be ridiculously lucky in their guesses, or they might be a time traveler who witnessed the events firsthand. (Or it might merely be an error in methodology or someone fabricating/misinterpreting data due to their own biases in favor of reincarnation.) And then we have all the work ahead of us to show how reincarnation works, to demonstrate there's a substantive soul of some sort, that it traverses time and space independently, that it carries memories and experiences with it, and so on. I guess my default position boils down to, "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence." I need the extraordinary evidence in this case.

1

Okay, now I actually classify myself as being 99.999% Atheist and 0.001% on the side of "If God/s existed why are they not making themselves know?"
After numerous hours and years of studies to gain my ThD, pouring over books, documents, etc, etc, that do little more than propose an unfounded hypothesis that there is a God and yet finding absolutely NO tangible, Empirically tried, tested and proven evidence in favour of that hypothesis in any shape nor form, then I'd state that ALL God/s are nothing more than figments of the imaginations of human kind and, as such, should be treated so.

What evidence could exist to support the hypothesis that there is no god? How can I disprove something that never existed? The onus of proof is on the affirmative, for which there is also no evidence.

@LovinLarge To borrow/use a Legal Terminology here, An case that relies sole upon unproven, tried and tested evidence is merely, nothing more than a False claim at best."
E.g. one single compendium of stories, i.e. the bible, CLAIMS itself to be the Truth yet it also contradicts itself time and time again.
No-one, absolutely no-one can prove a Negative just as no-one can prove a false claim, but a claim made with tried, tested Empirical evidence can be proven.
And yet, the Sciences have dozens, if not thousands, of books each containing tried and tested proven evidences with very few, if any, contradictions within them.
It IS easier to follow along with mere assumptions and suppositions IF one is so afraid of the truth hence we have religions where those who fear the truth can hide in relative false safety.

1

No. One is either one or the other. An agnostic leaves the door open on the notion of a god or deity of some sort, an atheist has closed that door completely.

You can't drink socially and still describe yourself as a non-drinker. If you drink socially, you drink, if you don't drink at all, you're a non-drinker. You're one or the other. You can't be both. Same thing with agnostics and atheists.

0

Apparently @LenHazell53 either blocked me or deleted his comment because he talked a bunch of nonsense and couldn't support it.

Before you post or comment, do you ask yourself if your intent is to make a helpful contribution? That is the guideline that I try to use and I think it might be of assistance to you, also.

@LovinLarge I explained the helpful intent of my first comment. Len and I have not been able to see eye to eye for a while now, which is why I don't take a soft tone with him like I do with others most of the time. I can support my claims. He seems to just say stuff to be an ass. Sure, I said his claims didn't make any sense (which they didn't), but instead of trying to support them, all he did was claim I punctuated my comment improperly (incorrectly and again, without support). But if you feel I don't contribute in a meaningful way, you can block me too. I strongly believe you'll get more out of reading what I have to say than him, though, and if you disagree with me, I'll actually debate the points and offer my support. I haven't seen that from him once.

@JeffMurray I'll take that as a "no".

@LovinLarge Except that I already basically said yes. I believed my first comment was helpful. When questioned, I explained why I thought it was helpful. I then gave an analogy to illustrate how it could be helpful. And have continued to clarify every time I'm asked even when people tell me my punctuation is incorrect or put words in my mouth. You seem to have formed your opinion of me based off my interaction with that asshole Len instead of how I interacted with you, and if that's the way you'd judge a person and their ability to contribute meaningful information, you probably wouldn't get much from me anyway.

@JeffMurray I meant helpful to others, not to yourself.

@LovinLarge Again, yes, I explained in detail how my first comment could be helpful to you (how would it be helpful to me when I've already researched the definitions of those words to my satisfaction). You seem like you're being intentionally difficult to get a rise out of me because you already don't like me.

@JeffMurray Some people say a lot with few words and other people use too many words to say too little. Guess which one you are.

0

I think most are addicted to a notion that one must 'belong' to a group of others in order to have any standing or credibility.

It is absolutely NOT so. Credibility doesn't hinge on acceptance. It rests upon whether or not something is 'so'. Ideas can be so and be like the proverbial tree falling in the non-populated forest.

We are individual units fully equipped with all necessary perceptual and analytical faculties. Nobody gets such a greater share to warrant dictating to others.

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