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I’d like to get members opinions and thoughts and feelings about agnostic theists; of which I am one. I don’t KNOW if an entity was the first cause or if there even was a first cause but the Kalam really makes one think. I have all kinds of doubts due to the problem of evil and the suffering in the world.

tactic8 4 Oct 15
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35 comments (26 - 35)

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3

The whole "first cause" argument is based out of the "argument from incredulity" logical fallacy. You can't imagine the universe existing without a creator (first cause).

So the idea then is to "make up" a first cause. The problem and fallacy of that, is if everything must have a first cause, what caused the first cause, then what caused that, then what caused that .... ad nauseum. It really falls apart when the claim is made "The first cause was without cause." .... well if the first cause could be without cause, then so could the second cause .... and maybe there was never a need for a first cause at all!!!

It just unravels all by itself. It can't stand on it's own merit.

As for "evil" .... good and evil are subjective judgments ...... For example .... Most would consider it "good" if a successful hunter were to share his killed deer with his starving neighbor ..... But few stop to consider how the deer would feel about that.

I agree.
So that means either the universe just spontaneously (poof) came into being out of nothing, OR it's always been here.
I'd bet on the latter

0

Agnostic theist? Might work? You do not know if gods exist, but you would consider it true that they do exist but agnosticly it could never be known?

I have no ideal what Kalam is.

I know "There is good and there is evil."

Word Level 8 Oct 15, 2020

You say you "have no idea" what Kalam is. Neither did I, but it took me about three minutes to find out, since I have the most powerful computer ever created at my fingertips at a moment's notice.
You remind me of people who profess not to know of crop circles, or reincarnation, or any number of things, but apparently certain of their nonexistence, when a few taps of the keyboard would enlighten them...are you REALLY that lazy, or willfully ignorant, or both?
I thought so.

@Storm1752 it isn't about lazy, it was about giving an answer based on the circumstances then existing, then after answering I look it up.

Was your typing to make all that worth it to do some unnecessary ?

@Storm1752 I like when people type "SP?" Just look it up...

4

Many do not share my opinions but I find "agnostic theist" to be an oxymoron. A person is either a believer or they are not. If one ever did believe (as I once did) it is also crazy for others to assert that you must try all the religions before you decide. Why do we want an entity to be a first cause? Equally on this, I do not know if there was a big bang. Having not been there I cannot tell you about noise. For me, Kalam does not make sense as I cannot tell you when the universe began to exist. Nothing written in religious books of any kind help me with this. I'm also not convinced of a "brain in a vat" or simulation arguments. People go out of their way to convince you that ancients had these ideas. It simply is not so. The arguments made it mainstream today as our technology allowed our brain to do progressive thinking on these subject.

So, what is it about and where did we come from? IDK and any person going by the facts alone will have the same answer.

4

Fuck that shit!

4

No, no, no, no and no.

If you don't care, why bother saying anything?

@Storm1752 No there isn't any beginning, no the cause of existence isn't a deity, no infinity is not an impossiblity, no there isn't a cause of a beginning that's isn't there, no there isn't a creator and no there is no God especially a Muslim God. I chose to express a negative. I'm a nonbeliever. I look for no answers. I wasn't here, now I'm here and soon I won't be here again. The universe will be here for a length of time that might as well be forever. It won't matter to any of us.

5

The beginning of wisdom is not knowing . . . . it is understanding just how little you really know. And as Spock once said, logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end.

Spock was so biblical. John 1:1 In the beginning was the logos, the logos was with God and was God.

I sincerely doubt that.
"For most people, religion is nothing more than a substitute for a malfunctioning brain. If people need religion, ignore them and maybe they will ignore you, and you can go on with your life. It wasn't until I was beginning to do Star Trek that the subject of religion arose. What brought it up was that people were saying that I would have a chaplain on board the Enterprise. I replied, "No, we don't.” Gene Roddenberry

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing, all-powerful god, who creates faulty humans and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene Roddenberry

3

For me the problem does not lie on the characteristics of the deity. It could be the best deity the mind can conjure; that is not the problem. I can come up with the best god in the universe. The problem or flaw is in the believer. The problem is to have a mind that relies in magical thinking and on unproven beings to solve everyday problems. Magical thinking is the problem. It takes us away from reality, it supports flawed reasoning, it arrives to erroneous conclusions, and reduces the logical and moral standing of the bearer.

0

Well, on this, if you ask me if I believe in God, I say no. If you ask me if there is a God, I say I don't know. With all the shit around the world I don't think the chances of the existence of a deity like described in the so called holy books are that big.

5

The Kalam Cosmological Argument is magnificent in its absurdity: it makes unwarranted assumptions about the nature of time and the nature of causality.

2

Nothing works like skepticism and inquiry.
I couldn't ask more from anyone.

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