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Once I said to a dear Christian friend: “Suppose there really is no God, and suppose I had it within my power to show you this truth. Would you want me to do it?” She took the question seriously and finally responded, “No; that would be very painful to me.” Question: suppose I did know there is no God and that I did have that power. Would I have the right to show her that painful truth anyway? Would I have the duty to do so? Or would it depend further considerations?

Wallace 7 Oct 17
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38 comments

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0

Proof = Believing factual evidence.

Faith = Believing what you've been told regardless of the factual evidence.

Good luck with that...

0

Since religion is not inherently evidence-based I'm curious as to how one would go about demonstrating conclusively the non-existence of something it requires faith to believe in. In other words, what additional power beyond what you possess today would you need? It sounds to me like your friend may have already considered that she could be wrong and would prefer to remain ignorant--she doesn't want her spell to be lifted.

The “dear Christian friend” was my young wife of a couple of years. She had always dreamed of having a Christian family and I was in a pre-ministerial program when we married. As I was “losing the faith” I tried unsuccessfully to bring her with me and was exasperated that she wouldn’t admit what I thought to be obvious. It was in the attempt to get her to face [what I felt was] this self-dishonesty that I posed the hypothetical question: “Suppose there actually is no God and I had a magical power that would show you this truth, would you want to see it?” I think she honestly said to me that she preferred self-deception—which is what you suggest.
We were married for over 50 years before she died, but we never argued about it again. In fact, she defended my skepticism to her rather intolerant family members on the ground that otherwise I would be hypocritical.

@Wallace A beautiful story of the power of love. Apologies for my insubstantial, if not callous reply.

@p-nullifidian Please, no apologies; I thought yours was one of the more thoughtful replies of all! Thanks!

0

I think the best course of action is to plant an idea, and let a person's curiosity run with it...or not. They have the burden of finding out themselves.....but then again didn't a snake do that once regarding a bit of fruit?

0

Christian beliefs and practices infringe on the rights of others. When their churches don't pay taxes you have to pay more to cover their lack of paying taxes. They want to stop your right to an abortion...your right to contraception ....and your right to watch pornography.

0

it maybe depends upon how you are defining "God?"
plus you have posited conditions that cannot possibly arise, so what is the point, if i may ask

0

Thanks to everyone who responded to this question. I did get what I think are some good insights from your comments.

1

You cannot give the truth away but people are willing to pay double for a fantasy

0

Depends on your goal. Done correctly, it could rid the world of fruitless pursuits, charlatans and layers of deceit. But for some this is the barrier between contentment and a nihilistic nightmare. I find it difficult to prove a null hypothesis. I wonder how that would come to pass.

2

As was once said, but unfortunately I cannot remember who said it, "Truth is always a painful thing to hear, especially to those who never want to hear it, BUT Truth, no matter how painful does far less harm than fiction does."
Hence, always be honest and truthful because the pain it may cause will often diminish but the lies will live on for ever.

1

If a question is hypothetical and painfully stupid, would I have the right to show the OP the painful truth? Asking for a friend.

3

I think it would be very disruptive to a person's psyche if they were a person of faith all their lives and you managed to somehow convince them that they were wrong. If you ever did it, it should at least be done gradually.

I'd say dont' try to copnvince, but just state the truth(s) over time.

2

I would not take it upon myself to expose anyone to my truth. I would offer suggestions that might lead a person to a greater knowing (in my opinion), but I would not use force! Mainly, because I can’t envision it working.

0

After rereading that a couple times and looking through the comments I would have to agree with best without gods just be there if she needs you. Of course fernapple had a good point too. 🙂

3

You can chance losing any friendship you want, but when she and her ilk begin expecting or demanding that you and yours pretend the same thing, that’s no friend.

Varn Level 8 Oct 18, 2020
5

If she declines the proof, I would tell her, "Okay, but let me know if you ever want to see the evidence. I'll be there to show you reality."

2

Let me ask this question in a different way. Suppose some intergalactic creatures showed up with all the advanced information they would have and need to be and do what they are. How would we deal with their (opinion) knowledge that our God does not exist?

I'm thinking Salem witch trials. 🤭

2

I was going to do a long story, thing is it is a solo journey of discovery and understanding. I can try to talk to a person, a family member or friend but unless they want to listen and talk your trying to relate a truth they do not want goes no where. Don't we see that with the evangelicals and the reality of what trump is?

1

Stupid questions.
If she didn't want to know, you'd have no right to tell her, even if you had that knowledge and power, which you don't.
You have no idea if there is a 'god' or not; you don't even know what 'god' would be in the first place, since there is no fixed definition.
It seems extremely arrogant and smug of you to presume you have those answers, which points out once again the principle difference between Agnostics and atheists, I suppose.

6

For the honest person the most bitter of truths is necessarily preferably to the sweetest of lies.

Succinctly stated!

5

If you did have such proof, then you would perhaps have a duty to make it public knowledge, and thereby allow everyone who wants it to benefit. But there is a difference between, putting your spare flower seeds on a table at your gate, for the passers by to help them selves, and going out at night sowing them secretly in peoples gardens.

However, if you knew that she was actively suffering because of her belief in god, then perhaps offering to sow vegetables in the gardens of the starving, maybe.

5

If she clearly said I don’t want to know, then you have to respect her choice. Otherwise, why did you give her the choice in the first place. Additionally, forcing her to hear what you have to say would make you no better than those insisting on giving you the word of god. Duty? I suppose it depends on the level of your friendship, but even so, you can bring the horse to the water, but you cannot make it drink, and you shouldn’t.

2

Wow, deep question. I think it would be good to enlighten those who wanted to be enlightened. Those who do not, would follow soon enough anyway.

1

A trolley problem involving imaginary beings means you're never damned if you do.

4

No it wouldn't. Golden rule dude. Do unto others...they have no qualms in the reverse situation.

3

If she's a good person outside of her delusions just let it go. That would causing unnecessary and unwarranted pain. Personally I would find that wrong. If, however, she's a pushy in your face God shouter wake her up.

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