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Understanding vegans

In previous discussions I've had with vegans I like to bring up the issue of insects. Agriculture, even organic, uses pesticides. As a consequence even vegetables require animal deaths to produce. I even saw one vegan suggest the world would be better off farming crickets for protein instead of cows.

What I never understand is how this is better? You can feed many people from one cow, but need to kill thousands of insects to feed the same number with plants. What basis is used to determine which lives are worth more or less?

Say it took 100,000 deaths of insects to grow enough to feed the same as 1 cow death. Is it still better to save the cow? How about a million? Would it become more moral to eat the cow at some point?

Katrik 7 Apr 10
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9

As a vegetarian for nearly 40 years I've come to see most of these dietary arguments being instigated by meat-eaters who don't wish to change their eating habits and feel that by imputing some sort of fraudulence or inconsistency in what they imagine my position must be they can pre-emptively defend their own. I've no interest in these hair-splitting arguments except as a social phenomenon.
Everyone lives the best life they can, according to their abilities and each has different abilities. If you choose to cultivate compassion you will more-or-less come naturally to certain decisions and try to adapt your life and diet accordingly. If not, that's fine; you're under no obligation; live your life as you want and let others do the same.
Instead of asking "how many insects is a cow worth?" try asking "why do I really care?".

I am not trying to find any inconsistency or fraudulence in anyone's position, nor defend any position. I am merely seeking an answer to a question, as it is one that has been bugging me. I care because I am a naturally curious individual. My question is regarding a potential fault I perceived in the vegan argument, and asked to either get clarification or an answer for how the determination was made.

The best argument i can see for a vegan is just the simple: I don't want to eat the flesh of a once living, breathing, feeling creature. They really don't need to go any further than that. It's totally up to them what they ingest. There are things i won't eat either, and i do not feel compelled to explain WHY (although i have my own reasons).

9

Vegetables - what food eats.

Jnei Level 8 Apr 10, 2018
7

Generally, vegans assign moral worth purely upon sentience. If a creature can feel pleasure, or, more importantly, pain, then we do our best to minimize our role in causing it. Most bugs do not have the ability to feel pain, however, even then, vegans tend to avoid killing them when possible. This is why we avoid honey and food colorings and makeups made from beetle carapaces, etc. Veganism isn't perfect by any means and it has never been about being perfect to any except extremists. It's merely about doing the best we can.

I can certainly understand placing value upon sentience, and thus would oppose acts of animal cruelty. However, how was it determined that insects cannot feel pain? Crush one of their limbs and they appear to react in much the same way any other animal would.

Uhm, if a tree or plant can feel pain why not insects... if they didn't they wouldn't avoid heat sources etc.

A tree or plant does not feel pain. They have no nerves through which to experience it. Insects are the same. No nerves.

@NerdIsTheWord You don't have to agree with me. There are studies all over the place documenting such. Plants have their own intelligence. Trees communicate with one another underground via networks of bacteria/organisms. They even compete with or help one another.
Plants will also warn others of pests. Some become more toxic to parasites once they sense they're under attack. Have you ever gardened?
There are "mimics" too, and they have a radar for lookalike plants, e.g. Cosmos flower /ragweed. Unless you've got a really good eye, before you know it you've got a 7ft ragweed you've been waiting on to bloom you thought was cosmos.

@NerdIsTheWord Insects have nerves

So where does that leave commercial species, pigs in particular, but also most breeds of cow, horse, sheep, goat etc? They only live because of their commercial value. Remove that value and they will be slaughtered in their millions the next day to make way for the crops.

Some insects have nervous systems, most have similarly functioning organs that react in different ways. Pain, when it comes to insects and other bugs, is a pretty hotly debated topic actually. Here's a source detailing a lot of the complicated factors involved: [askentomologists.com]

As for trees. Yes, trees are increasingly being found to posess some sort of stacked intelligence. However, that is separate from an ability to feel pain. Plants absolutely have biological means of reacting to stimuli and even ways to defend themselves from harm once detected, but that is not the same as pain. Arguments could certainly be made to parallel such reactions morally and ethically, but they are distinct biologically speaking. That said, we don't generally eat trees. They are by far the most complex of plants and the only plants we're aware of that exhibit such high-functioning behaviors. We do partake of fruits from trees, but those have been specifically adapted to be eaten as a means of seed dispersal so I wouldn't hedge my morals against it. Certainly arguments could be made against the factory farming of trees for wood or for some of the practices employed in genetically altering fruit-bearing trees, but again, veganism isn't about being perfect. It is about doing the best we can. Whether plants feel pain or not is, ultimately, irrelevant. We NEED plants to survive. We do NOT NEED meat to survive. The moral argument hits a wall where need is concerned, which is, as I said before, why I do not begrudge obligate carnivores their meat.

5

The dalai lama eats meat, but only big animals for this reasoning.
I think regardless of the animal (or vegetable) we give it a good pleasant life and sudden pain free death. Hey, I don't mind being eaten once I am dead, fish worms, I don't care.

Me too, I'm hoping to be put in the earth to replenish it; ye olde blood and bone fertilizer.

5

Having been put through the paces with vegan daughters I can tell you that 'true vegans' won't eat anything with any animal products or that have had animal products involved in their processing. Through much error I have learned that red dye is made with crushed up beetles and that most sugar is run through a bone char. Honey is a somewhat obvious no-no and leather, of course, is too. Real pain in the ass trying to be supportive of their food choices. That having been said:[scientificamerican.com]

I have a vegan daughter too. She won't eat things with sugar in them because the whitening process uses animal bones. I try to be supportive, because if I had the time to really plan meals and not just eat on the run so much, I would be at the very least vegetarian (plus I don't even like meat all that much). I "get" what she's trying to do but don't have the time or self-discipline to do it myself.

5

I sure do love chicken...

Lani Level 5 Apr 10, 2018
4

Everyone draws the line in a different place. It has to do with how much you identify with another organism and it's suffering. You'd eat a cow... Okay. How about Lamb? Yeah? Fine... How about Horse? Dog? Chimpanzee? Human? Human you know? Your own Arm?
Does the suffering of a cow mean more than the suffering of 100,000 crickets? How about 1,000,000,000,000,000 bacteria? I think Humans do better on a largely vegetative diet, with little to no meat. Our meat consumption is a relatively new adaptation and we don't digest it very well. There are a host of health problems associated with a meat rich diet. It would certainly be better for the earth to stop chopping out rain forest to grow more cattle. I'm hoping someone's gonna CRISPR up a perfect banana that has all nutrients and nourishment you need. Then I can just eat those, guilt free... lol!

There are forests being chopped out for crops too. /js E.g. palm

@Qualia Truth.

4

Vegans don't bother me at all. I can sit down right next to one and enjoy my medium rare steak as if they weren't there.

We are omnivores.

4

If we were not meant to eat meat we wouldn't be able to digest it in the first place. We're not pure carnivore either. Suck it vegan that smell when you mow your lawn is grass crying.

@Louie406 You don't need quantum theory to know grass is alive. (I don't know what relevance it would have either.) All plants are living things.

4

Btw, I'm not trying to start an argument over whether veganism is good or not. I'm simply curious how the moral framework decides which lives are worth more.

I would guess it is because we haven't found out that insects have feelings... yet.

@Ella but how is this determined? Wouldn't killing one cow cause less suffering than thousands of insects? Surely whatever solution resulted in the fewest deaths would be the best one then, even if it involved animal products?

@Ella They do indeed. Next time you come across one, damage one of its limbs. The insect will begin to panic and flail around. Just earlier today my cat had hurt a fly that had gotten inside. The thing was freaking out trying to get away since it could no longer fly.

@Ella I'm not sure what you mean. Pain is a signal sent from nerves to the brain to signify damage. How is it different in insects?

3

Livestock farming has a large carbon footprint. Give up meat and you'll do more for the environment than giving up the car.

For the animal consciousness argument: the cow's nervous system is a lot more complex than an insect's.

3

There are many different variations of vegan. However, it is unquestionably more ethical to be a vegan than otherwise. You only have to see the intelligence of pigs and cows to understand why. Watch them develop emotional bonds, experience joy, mourn a lost offspring.. and then see many of them suffer a life cruelty just to be used for bacon or a burger.

That’s not even mentioning the carbon footprint which is killing millions of species each year due to global warming.

I understand why having a stricter diet for some people is complicated, impractical, or even impossible. I recommend, at the very least, supporting those farms which don’t raise their livestock in a grotesque manner. For most farm products, it’s the difference of 1-2 dollars.

Marz Level 7 Apr 11, 2018

Spot on!

3

I think it goes along the lines of cows have brains while bugs don't have the same kind of brain, but are more run by just a bunch of nerves. They don't really think. I'm not vegan, though

3

I eat whole food plant based for my health, but I'm not a vegan. No other treatment, either medical or dietary, has ever proven to consistently reverse heart disease. I still wear leather belts & shoes & my truck has leather interior. As far as the environmental question, 80% of all food crops grown in the US go to feed livestock. That number translates over to total industrial herbicide & pesticide usage as well. If everyone in the US stopped eating animal products, the most conservative estimates say we would reduce our total carbon footprint by 50% as a nation. Most credible estimates put that number much higher. We would also drastically reduce our agricultural land usage. I'm not arguing the ethics or morality. These are simply verifiable facts. There are plenty of studies to be found on Google.

That's not my question though. My question is, how does one determine an animal life's worth under a vegan moral framework?

@Ella What are these considerations?

@Ella - exactly

@Katrik - I just listed a bunch of considerations. Many people eat this way for health & environmental reasons, but you immediately discounted that possibility because it didn't fit the answer you're looking for. It's no different from asking why people are atheists. You'll get many different, but equally valid responses.

3

The best argument I’ve heard is that some animals have a greater capacity to suffer than others, a greater capacity to enjoy life, etc.

I would be greatly interested in learning how this was determined. Do you know where I can find a study or something for that?

@Katrik This is a good start: [relaximanentomologist.tumblr.com]

@Spooner I am reluctant to get information from a tumblr blog, but I will look further into his claims to see if I can find a more credible source.

@Katrik Agreed, but this one mentions the studies that back up his claims... I would just use it as a starting point to look those studies up

3

I also don’t understand veganism. I get vegetarianism, for any number of reasons (health, economical, ethical) but I don’t really get how veganism furthers any of those purposes.

I'm not a vegan, but I know why they don't have dairy. The conditions most dairy animals (and egg laying hens) are in are pretty deplorable; in fact, oftentimes worse than the conditions of the animals raised for meat. Of course, this argument could be countered by a non-vegan who ate free-range eggs, etc... but 99% of dairy is not raised that way... most people don't want to pay the extra money for it.

3

That's just a western prejudice. Insects and grubs are widely eaten in Asia, and are delicious, with higher levels of protein and nutrients than meat. Also it takes very little to raise them, and raising insects is sustainable, unlike meat, which takes vast amounts of land and water and their waste and pesticides pollute the world's water systems.

Next New Miracle Superfood: Insects, Scientists Say via @forbes [forbes.com]

From what data I've seen that is certainly true, but I'm curious how one determines that an insect's life is worth less than a cow or a chicken under veganism.

@Katrik Why do you care? Even plants have feelings. This is about sustainability and saving the planet..eating insects instead of spreading deadly pesticides everywhere to kill them.

It reminds me of the story about when huge swarms of locusts used to wipe out the crops of people in the northwest territories. One woman didn't panic-she merely bought a bunch of turkey poults and raised them for free on the locusts, making a profit while the beef farmers lost everything.

@birdingnut Because I'm curious. No plants do not have feelings as that would require cognition, something plants are incapable of. No my question is not about sustainability, but of the moral value of life.

@Katrik Not only can plants communicate with each other, they also call in insects to attack caterpillars, etc. People even used to hook their house plants to machines to read their reactions and the plants were able to identify "murderers" who tore up other houseplants in their presence.

"Plants can communicate with insects as well, sending airborne messages that act as distress signals to predatory insects that kill herbivores. Maize attacked by beet armyworms releases a cloud of volatile chemicals that attracts wasps to lay eggs in the caterpillars' bodies. Dec 20, 2013"

How Plants Communicate [wired.com] via @WIRED "

3

Uh........judgment much? Eat what ever the hell makes you happy, be it plants, animals, each other, and leave well enough alone.

How am I being judgmental? I was trying to ask the question in as objective a way as I could. I asked because I seriously want to know.

2

To me this entire issue is a first world problem
That is, you can really only concern yourself with the ethics of it if you are well enough off to even consider it
If your third world, it is either your religious tradition, or of no import at all
If you are Naked, Hungry and Homeless, your Vegan or Vegetarian nature will take a back seat to your base survival.

It is an argument for the privileged, by the privileged, and of the privileged.

2

From my unerstanding that person wasn't a vegan, heck real vegans won't even let themselves eat honey. (ummm....honey...drools).

I think the person in question wasn't saying that eating crickets was a "good" thing but that it would be a "better" thing. Though it's possible she was a vegan in name only. I only met her once.

Ah, thanks for clarification. Well it's an opinion I've heard before, but mainly as an impact of farming on the planet and protein intake kind of way.

2

Dont worry folks I have the answer..... Soylent Green !!

2

Such a hang up on death we humans have. Don’t get me wrong. I’m all for ethical treatment of the animals I eat, but life... it’s predicated on death.

It’s admirable that people want to reduce harm on other living things, but I think we have an odd way of viewing death as absolutely bad. Do you think animals comprehend death as much as we do?

it's about carbon footprint and sustainability / global warming with meat as well as sentience 😉

@Louie406 I’ve never been a deer, so I’m just spitballing here. I think they definitely have real fear, as an evolved mechanism, but I don’t for a second think they comprehend death like we do.

I tend to be modest, but it’s undeniable that we have brains that vastly outclass other species when it comes to overall comprehension.

2

Did you factor in the amount of resouces it takes to raise the cow? The cow would eat more plants than the amount of plants eaten by vegans that don't eat meat. Also, organic food production may use certain pesticides, but the great majority of the most toxic chemicals used for pesticides and herbicides used in conventional farming are not used, thereby putting less poison into our food, water and earth.

I am using a cow for the sake of an example. Lets set aside livestock, and take a free range animal for instance. Something like, deer. Now is it's life of greater or lesser value than that of an insect?

Exactly... trophic levels show that there is about a 90% reduction of edible biomass with each step up a trophic level. So the amount of insects killed to make the feed for the cow is 10x the amount killed for equivalent vegetable protein. Of course, if it was raised organically, it could be even less. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, the sentience of bugs is almost certainly less than that of a mammal (though not necessarily absent). All that being said, I'm not a vegan, but do try to eat low on the food chain for both environmental and health reasons.

2

I know a number of vegans, most ex vegetarians. Most of them have anxiety, depression or are bipolar and are constantly struggling with their weight because they eat too many carbs. And I am not unconvinced their diet contributes to their emotional and mental state.

It is possible to have a healthy lifestyle as a vegan but it requires considerable effort and abandonment of processed food products. It is much easier to do in countries with strong vegetarian and vegan cultures such as India and China than in other countries that do not. Getting your protein in is essential.

2

I do not meat every meal. Not because of the specific cruelty to the animals, which is not something I like to think about.

Because I really really really really like meat.

It is also very much harder on the environment to try to grow grain to nourish an animal to maturity.. Well for a cow at least.

A pig can be fed on restaurant slop. A goat will eat your shrubs. Chickens can be fed cheaply and will eat the bugs in your yard.

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