What is confusing you?

@Katrik The essential ideology which is veganism. Explain that to me as if I were a child.

@Palindromeman As it has been explained to me: Vegans have an issue with the suffering that animals endure as a result of human predation, or industry. As a result they choose not to partake in anything that ever came from an animal. This includes meat, eggs, and even materials that come from animals without killing them: honey, wool, etc.

@Katrik Okay, got it.

I am not trying to find any inconsistency or fraudulence in anyone's position, nor defend any position. I am merely seeking an answer to a question, as it is one that has been bugging me. I care because I am a naturally curious individual. My question is regarding a potential fault I perceived in the vegan argument, and asked to either get clarification or an answer for how the determination was made.

The best argument i can see for a vegan is just the simple: I don't want to eat the flesh of a once living, breathing, feeling creature. They really don't need to go any further than that. It's totally up to them what they ingest. There are things i won't eat either, and i do not feel compelled to explain WHY (although i have my own reasons).

I can certainly understand placing value upon sentience, and thus would oppose acts of animal cruelty. However, how was it determined that insects cannot feel pain? Crush one of their limbs and they appear to react in much the same way any other animal would.

Uhm, if a tree or plant can feel pain why not insects... if they didn't they wouldn't avoid heat sources etc.

A tree or plant does not feel pain. They have no nerves through which to experience it. Insects are the same. No nerves.

@NerdIsTheWord You don't have to agree with me. There are studies all over the place documenting such. Plants have their own intelligence. Trees communicate with one another underground via networks of bacteria/organisms. They even compete with or help one another.
Plants will also warn others of pests. Some become more toxic to parasites once they sense they're under attack. Have you ever gardened?
There are "mimics" too, and they have a radar for lookalike plants, e.g. Cosmos flower /ragweed. Unless you've got a really good eye, before you know it you've got a 7ft ragweed you've been waiting on to bloom you thought was cosmos.

@NerdIsTheWord Insects have nerves

So where does that leave commercial species, pigs in particular, but also most breeds of cow, horse, sheep, goat etc? They only live because of their commercial value. Remove that value and they will be slaughtered in their millions the next day to make way for the crops.

Some insects have nervous systems, most have similarly functioning organs that react in different ways. Pain, when it comes to insects and other bugs, is a pretty hotly debated topic actually. Here's a source detailing a lot of the complicated factors involved: [askentomologists.com]

As for trees. Yes, trees are increasingly being found to posess some sort of stacked intelligence. However, that is separate from an ability to feel pain. Plants absolutely have biological means of reacting to stimuli and even ways to defend themselves from harm once detected, but that is not the same as pain. Arguments could certainly be made to parallel such reactions morally and ethically, but they are distinct biologically speaking. That said, we don't generally eat trees. They are by far the most complex of plants and the only plants we're aware of that exhibit such high-functioning behaviors. We do partake of fruits from trees, but those have been specifically adapted to be eaten as a means of seed dispersal so I wouldn't hedge my morals against it. Certainly arguments could be made against the factory farming of trees for wood or for some of the practices employed in genetically altering fruit-bearing trees, but again, veganism isn't about being perfect. It is about doing the best we can. Whether plants feel pain or not is, ultimately, irrelevant. We NEED plants to survive. We do NOT NEED meat to survive. The moral argument hits a wall where need is concerned, which is, as I said before, why I do not begrudge obligate carnivores their meat.

Me too, I'm hoping to be put in the earth to replenish it; ye olde blood and bone fertilizer.

I have a vegan daughter too. She won't eat things with sugar in them because the whitening process uses animal bones. I try to be supportive, because if I had the time to really plan meals and not just eat on the run so much, I would be at the very least vegetarian (plus I don't even like meat all that much). I "get" what she's trying to do but don't have the time or self-discipline to do it myself.

There are forests being chopped out for crops too. /js E.g. palm

@Qualia Truth.

@Louie406 You don't need quantum theory to know grass is alive. (I don't know what relevance it would have either.) All plants are living things.

I would guess it is because we haven't found out that insects have feelings... yet.

@Ella but how is this determined? Wouldn't killing one cow cause less suffering than thousands of insects? Surely whatever solution resulted in the fewest deaths would be the best one then, even if it involved animal products?

@Ella They do indeed. Next time you come across one, damage one of its limbs. The insect will begin to panic and flail around. Just earlier today my cat had hurt a fly that had gotten inside. The thing was freaking out trying to get away since it could no longer fly.

@Ella I'm not sure what you mean. Pain is a signal sent from nerves to the brain to signify damage. How is it different in insects?

Spot on!

That's not my question though. My question is, how does one determine an animal life's worth under a vegan moral framework?

@Ella What are these considerations?

@Ella - exactly

@Katrik - I just listed a bunch of considerations. Many people eat this way for health & environmental reasons, but you immediately discounted that possibility because it didn't fit the answer you're looking for. It's no different from asking why people are atheists. You'll get many different, but equally valid responses.

I would be greatly interested in learning how this was determined. Do you know where I can find a study or something for that?

@Katrik This is a good start: [relaximanentomologist.tumblr.com]

@Spooner I am reluctant to get information from a tumblr blog, but I will look further into his claims to see if I can find a more credible source.

@Katrik Agreed, but this one mentions the studies that back up his claims... I would just use it as a starting point to look those studies up

I'm not a vegan, but I know why they don't have dairy. The conditions most dairy animals (and egg laying hens) are in are pretty deplorable; in fact, oftentimes worse than the conditions of the animals raised for meat. Of course, this argument could be countered by a non-vegan who ate free-range eggs, etc... but 99% of dairy is not raised that way... most people don't want to pay the extra money for it.

From what data I've seen that is certainly true, but I'm curious how one determines that an insect's life is worth less than a cow or a chicken under veganism.

@Katrik Why do you care? Even plants have feelings. This is about sustainability and saving the planet..eating insects instead of spreading deadly pesticides everywhere to kill them.

It reminds me of the story about when huge swarms of locusts used to wipe out the crops of people in the northwest territories. One woman didn't panic-she merely bought a bunch of turkey poults and raised them for free on the locusts, making a profit while the beef farmers lost everything.

@birdingnut Because I'm curious. No plants do not have feelings as that would require cognition, something plants are incapable of. No my question is not about sustainability, but of the moral value of life.

@Katrik Not only can plants communicate with each other, they also call in insects to attack caterpillars, etc. People even used to hook their house plants to machines to read their reactions and the plants were able to identify "murderers" who tore up other houseplants in their presence.

"Plants can communicate with insects as well, sending airborne messages that act as distress signals to predatory insects that kill herbivores. Maize attacked by beet armyworms releases a cloud of volatile chemicals that attracts wasps to lay eggs in the caterpillars' bodies. Dec 20, 2013"

How Plants Communicate [wired.com] via @WIRED "

How am I being judgmental? I was trying to ask the question in as objective a way as I could. I asked because I seriously want to know.

I think the person in question wasn't saying that eating crickets was a "good" thing but that it would be a "better" thing. Though it's possible she was a vegan in name only. I only met her once.

Ah, thanks for clarification. Well it's an opinion I've heard before, but mainly as an impact of farming on the planet and protein intake kind of way.

it's about carbon footprint and sustainability / global warming with meat as well as sentience

@Louie406 I’ve never been a deer, so I’m just spitballing here. I think they definitely have real fear, as an evolved mechanism, but I don’t for a second think they comprehend death like we do.

I tend to be modest, but it’s undeniable that we have brains that vastly outclass other species when it comes to overall comprehension.

I am using a cow for the sake of an example. Lets set aside livestock, and take a free range animal for instance. Something like, deer. Now is it's life of greater or lesser value than that of an insect?

Exactly... trophic levels show that there is about a 90% reduction of edible biomass with each step up a trophic level. So the amount of insects killed to make the feed for the cow is 10x the amount killed for equivalent vegetable protein. Of course, if it was raised organically, it could be even less. Furthermore, as mentioned earlier, the sentience of bugs is almost certainly less than that of a mammal (though not necessarily absent). All that being said, I'm not a vegan, but do try to eat low on the food chain for both environmental and health reasons.