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Irrefutable Godly Contact?

As an Agnostic, I would seriously consider becoming one of the most ardent followers to sign up with any organized religion that could prove to me beyond a reasonable doubt its founding leader had been in direct contact with an extra-terrestrial godly being responsible for the creation of humanity. Or, even a prophet empowered from on high with the authority to direct me on the path to an eternal life filled with joy and ultimate contentment.

I have to believe most any sane person would seriously have to consider joining a religion like that; especially, if purposely rejecting the opportunity might result in ending up in a far less enviable situation. The fact is untold billions of believers, convinced that their particular founder has met those very criteria, have been successfully recruited. If any of them have been correct in their assessment, I may rue the day I decided agnosticism became my belief of choice.

Although far from a comprehensive selection, let’s reflect on three religious leaders I’m somewhat familiar with; groundbreakers, founding organized religions claiming to meet the above benchmarks of authenticity. The Christian, Muslim and Mormon faiths were established by Paul, Mohammed and Joseph Smith respectively The obvious dilemma right off the bat, since the claims are diametrically opposed, is at least two of the three must logically be considered bogus. They can’t all be true. Whether any of them meet the necessary criteria is open to serious skepticism.

Why did I pick Paul instead of Jesus as the founder of Christianity? That’s because he was. Jesus was never anything but a devout Jew, but that’s a topic for later discussion.

At any rate, all three made claims that were similarly miraculous. All three claimed direct contact with heavenly beings; Paul with a resurrected Jesus, Mohammed with the angel Gabriel, and Joseph Smith with both Jesus and God the Father. Instead of attempting to create new godly beings, all three claimed contacts with heavenly personages already accepted by most potential converts.That made it easier to enlist potential members.

So, what do we end up with? As previously stated, at least two had to have been making fraudulent claims. There’s insufficient collaborative evidence to support the claims of any of the three. None of the miraculous assertions would withstand scrutiny in a court of law.

Present me with irrefutable proof that wouldn’t be thrown out of court as unreliable hearsay and/or witnesses that could withstand stringent cross-examination; then, and only then, I might seriously be willing to consider changing my Agnostic persona to that of a true believer.

(NOTE: For any fellow members at agnostic.com, feel free to log on to my weekly blog, agnosticliberal.com , alternating between agnostic and liberal themed topics. No strings attached. No personal information, log-in or cost required. I have no idea who checks it out.)

Raymond A. Hult

raymondahult 5 Apr 16
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13 comments

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1

Appreciate all the comments. Keeps me on my toes. Lest there be any doubt, I have no doubt that any of the Gods claimed by organized religion are bogus. My purpose in stating I might be convinced into joining was meant convey the impossibility of anyone meeting my criteria. It will never happen because the only supposed evidence is the complete lack of evidence except for the totally unreliable kind consisting of ancient fairy- tale hearsy I hope snowy owl might recosnider testing out my blog at agnosticliberal.com and give me another try. What have you got to lose. You might like it.

1

Firstly, and as a person with a ThD ( Doctorate Degree in Theology an Comparative Modern Religions) I request and EXPECT you to offer up any and all Proof Positive at YOUR disposal in FAVOUR of your claim, as erroneous as it most definitely is, since there is and NEVER has been ANY such Irrefutable, Undeniable Evidence to exhibit that the Hebrew God (aka the Christian, Muslim, Evangelist, Episcopakian, etc, etc, ad infinitum) has EVER existed at all EXCEPT in the fevered, frightened, scared and underdeveloped minds of those primitives who STOLE the Monotheistic Ideology from the Era of Ancient Egypt known as the
Amenhotep IV or, as he became known later, Akhenaton, Era at the city that was once called Akhetaton, meaning in English the Place where the Aton ( the Sun) rises.
Prior to the Hebrews learning about Akhenaton and his Montheist Experiment those self-same Hebrews were worshipers of a Multitude of Deities, etc, etc, and remained so until the advent and invention of their assumed and mythical national identity was manufactured by those who served in the Courts of the Mesopotamian Kings from Hamurhabi to Necubanisar IV.
Which occurred most likely somewhere between the years of 1,100 and 1,080 B.C.E. fyi.

1

The existence of a "godly" being doesn't make that being "God". Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic- or a miracle.

Any being that could somehow create humanity begs the question- where did they come from? What created them? Any such sufficiently advanced species must have originated somehow, which puts us right back to the starting point of asking "how did life and intelligence evolve?" It's an infinite regress, with no supernatural creator in sight. Such beings might be worthy of thanks, but not worship. They would be no more "gods" than humans, who have bred numerous species ourselves, are.

Believing in God forces the question of where did it all began? I've had the same thought in the past. Thanks for reminding me. My inclination is to accept the "big bang" in lieu of any involvement of any God ever.

3

Nobody has produced any falsifiable evidence in the last 5,000 years to support the existence claim of any god. Enough said.

You hit the nail on the head. I think more could be said, however. I think it's the responsibility of the logically inclined to keep trying to impress on the less logically inclined the error of their thinking. The more logical humans--the better, even if it's not that many more.

3

I can appreciate that you would acknowledge as a fact the existence of a god if one were to make itself known to humanity in a real and physical way but why would you want to involve a prophet? Prophets are talking heads for their god because their god never shows up and makes an appearance because -------there is no god behind their talking head rhetoric.
On the second point of joining a religion because the prophet behind it has proof of the existence of a god doesn't make much sense to me either. Wouldn't you want to know that this god being was representative of the values that you hold dear to your heart? If the god in question were a destroyer god like Cthulhu, would you want to sign up for that religion?
I don't think I'll be signing up for your blog any time soon.

I think you may have misunderstood the intention of my post. I brought up prophets because they claim godly contact. I agree with you 100% their claims are worthless because they can't prove their claims by providing any credible evidence. I would never sign up for any organized religion. Intimating I would consider doing so was my way of showing no one can meet the criteria I established. Also, there is no sign-up required for my blog at agnosticliberal. com. I have no idea who even accesses it. Go ahead and give it a try. You might find we are more in agreement than you first thought.

@raymondahult I think I'm good, right where I'm at but to be fair I'll see where you go with this group and proceed accordingly, like a do over.

4

Your an agnostic right? Do you have any knowledge of any gods?

Absolutely not. Certainly not as claimed by organized religion or any other human being. However, I can't prove beyond any doubt there isn't. Neither can you or anyone else. The only thing I'm convinced of is any such God has never had any contact with humanity. I think you may appreciate my blog this week at agnosticliberal.com on the topic of heaven. No strings attached. No personal information, log-in or cost involved. I won't even know if you checked it out.

6

Except...."heaven" "eternal life,." etc etc is described as singing praises to gawd 24/7/365+++.
Even as a child that sounded Dreadful to me! Hard Pass!!!

Eternity spent sing the same old, same old shit over and over again, NOT for this little black duck either thank you.

You're talking about "heaven" which I assume means you read my blog at agnosticliberal.com this week on the subject of heaven. If you did, I hope you will continue to follow my weekly, no strings attached, blogs.

@raymondahult actually, no, that's a direct quote from the Babble, but I will consider your invitation, thanks.

4

I do not see any way that an all knowing all everything god could prove existence. Sure, some superior creature could show up, but even then, how to they actually prove anything? Sure they, being superior to humans, may do "miracles," however, that still doesn't make them "the god."

I get your point. Still, if Jesus appeared in person today and walked on water and raised a couple of people from the grave, it would grab my attention and, at least, the possibility of God. We both know that's probably never going to happen. I think you may enjoy my weekly blog at agnosticliberal.com this week on the topic of heaven. Give it a try. No personal information, log-in or cost involved. No additional interaction whatever.

4

If I believe in a creator god what belief system do I use in order to come to that conclusion? Next, I use an alien being in some fashion as a creator and I have the same problems. My question is why would I be worried about an eternal life filled with joy and contentment? That has to worry so many people or ideas of it would not continue to pop up. I even have a now dead friend who told me while alive that he had no problems with singing and praising god forever and ever. In his mind god was the big spark and we are the little sparks. It must be so nice to have your life all planned out for you. Most Christians need that kind of planning and few are smart enough to know that Paul/Saul was the real founder of their religion. Saul of Tarsus. That wonderful man who could not tell if he was in or out of his body while he received his divine teachings. I do not need irrefutable proof to know where I stand nor could any be found that would make me become a believer of a religious system.

Men did all this. Men made and created all this. Religious stress does not cause me this daily insanity that it seems others deal with. How did we get here? I haven't a clue and I am not searching.

I don't know about a creator God, but I'm certainly open to the possibility. I probably lean more to the "big bang" theory, but who knows for sure. It sounds to me that you may have taken me up on my offer to check out my weekly blog this week at agnosticliberal.com on the topic of heaven. If not, check it out. No personal information, log-in or cost required.

@raymondahult You are open to the possibility of a creator god. Are you open to the possibility that this creator wants to be worshiped and you should sing its praises forever and ever? I'm not.

How about a creator God who could care less about being worshiped or praised? Just created earth and humanity because he could. Never any intention to have any personal involvement with what he created.

@raymondahult Why does there even have to be a creator god?

4

The only time I thought god must be real, was the day I lost my virginity! Two weeks later that bitch cut me off, and suddenly I thought Satan was real too?!🤷🏻♂️

4

Hello and welcome. The other thing that you have to factor in, is that if there is a creator god, how do you know that the god, does not prefer atheists anyway. After all they do not set up false gods in its name, use its name and supposed authority to exploit others, claim to have a special relationship denied to others with it, claim to understand its mind, or tell it what to do. In fact atheists must be the most god friendly people on the planet.

Perhaps you are correct. Me? I always wonder if he/she/it likes that fucking worship music.

Wow, great comment. I never thought of it that way, but you make a great point. I think we may think the same. Try out my weekly blog this week at agnosticliberal.com on the topic of heaven. I think you may enjoy it. No concern of providing any personal information, log-in or cost.

@twill No entity with even half a brain could like that.

@twill, @raymondahult Thank you, will do.

3

Welcome to the asylum. Enjoy your stay.

Even if I were presented with credible and verifiable evidence of the existence of any god, I still wouldn't join any religion.

To paraphrase the late great Groucho Marx, I don't want to join any club that would have me as a member.

Besides, even if there were gods, none of them would be worthy of worship.

Thanks for your kind welcome. That's a first for me so far. I think you depreciate your worth too much. You have a good sense of humor. You may enjoy my current weekly blog this week at agnosticliberal.com in which I try to inject a little humor on the topic of heaven.

@raymondahult I promise, I know my worth.
I'm freaking' delightful, ask anyone!
🤣

1

There are ways of understanding religious texts other than by assuming they are intended to be taken literally.

The main human superpower is our capacity for using symbolism - language itself being the prime example.

A metaphorical reading - not just any metaphorical reading, but a particular one - unlocks the promised benefits of eternal joy. Literal readings lead only to self-delusion, disappointment, and endless war.

skado Level 9 Apr 16, 2022

Your comment indicates to me you are far better educated than my novice approach to religious matters. Nevertheless, I think, for the most part, those commenting in the scriptures pretty well meant what they were saying with no great capacity for symbolism. I invite you to check out my weekly blog this week at agnosticliberal.com and give me your thoughts concerning this week's topic on Heaven.

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