Agnostic.com

14 5

Is transgender expression the result of societal constraints placed on men and women?

A teenager asked me if transgender is reinforcing stereotypical ideas of what genders should be. I told him that we have to be aware and protect the rights of people who identify as transgender, because the stereotypes already exist. Those who express outside the norms of what is expect for their sex are often abused and even murdered.

The question though remains. If you were not given a role based on your anatomy, if all were free to express and dress as they please, if your worth was solely based on that you are a human being, without any limitations suggested or imposed relative to your sexual reproductive organs, would there be the same need to change one's sex?

I have some concern about young people on hormone blockers. How can you reject the body you are maturing into before you have ever had the experience of owning it? Is that rejection based on what society has told you it is to be a woman or a man? What if you change your mind and want to bear children one day? How can someone so young make these kind of decisions for the rest of their life when they have not even experienced sex?

Our experiences shape our ideas about gender, sex, relationships, love, and possibilities. For those who elect surgery, is it worth the risk of anesthesia and possibly losing sensations for some fleshy pillows on your chest, an orifice, or a phallus? Do those things matter because that is what has been sold to you? Is it because society has taught people that they are limited as they are? If so, maybe it isn't they that needs to change, maybe it's society.

thinkwithme 7 Apr 28
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

14 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

0

Not being transgender I don't feel qualified to guess at their reasons, but I don't believe gender roles which are becoming far less strict and more open are a major contributor.

JimG Level 8 May 13, 2018
0

IN my opinion, we ,all, human beings need to accept the way we naturally are. A human being with a vagina is a female and a human being with a penis is a male according to my understanding. If these two refuse to accept their -gender then it is self-denial. YEs , a woman can act as man and the other way another. Nevertheless, both need to accept they naturally happen to be . As a woman , i can say i am happy the way i am . And if not then the problem is NOT the body i happened to carry but the mind. Self-acceptance is the key to true happyness.

We have been talking a lot about the distinction between body parts and gender. A male or female gender is a role based on societal expectations about how you should look think or behave when you have those parts. This varies depending on where you are and who you associate with. If we know anything, we know the mob is not always correct and especially in regard to understanding all the nuances of any individual.

2

Not all trans people desire or pursue physical changes. Gender is internal, and sometimes it corresponds with the sex someone has or would feel most comfortable with, and sometimes it doesn't. For me, having a vagina is perfectly fine, it's only visible to people I choose, so doesn't automatically get me misgendered, and its sensation is functional and enjoyable for me. Breasts on the other hand serve no benefit for me. Humans have permanent breasts because we walk upright, so it's a visible indication of fertility (whereas our crouching ape kin indicate fertility by the colour of their ass). I'm not trying to indicate fertility, or attract a mate with them, and they physically do nothing for me, but cause a lot of physical and mental stress. However, I have a positive relationship with nipples, so since my chest size would require nipple grafts and risk losing sensation, chest surgery is something I have mixed feelings about. I was on testosterone for about a year (had to stop because of health problems), and the permanent effects, including genital changes and deepened voice are huge in me now being comfortable in my body.

If you're concerned about someone undergoing permanent changes to their body that they may regret, remember that that is exactly what going through natural puberty does. I'm in this lose-lose situation with my chest because I went through female puberty first, and it causes distressing changes that are very difficult, invasive, or impossible to correct after. Hormone blockers don't make any permanent changes. They put things on pause so someone has more time to explore themselves before going through permanent changes either way.

I'm also antinatalist, and consider it completely immoral to choose to reproduce, so not being able to do so is never a point against something. And in any case, far worse to regret having kids and not be able to change that, than regret not having them, and still be able to adopt or be involved with kids outside of being a full-time parent.

3

For better or worse, what society says is a huge part of most people's life. If you really want to fit in but are a guy who wears dresses you may think you need to change your body to fit in with that socially accepted image. If society changes to be more accepting of something it still doesn't make it desirable etc. There are a myriad of differing scenario here. I generally go with the 'gather as much info and then go with what you feel'. Of course you may regret your decision down the line. That's life and goes for every other major decision also.

I was lucky to realise that societal views didn’t matter that much to me. Makes life a lot easier.

I’m a guy and started wearing skirts to cubs aged 8 and make-up aged 12. I’m straight and a black belt in Kung-Fu. People used to think I was confused but I feel very sorted mentally. A lot of my friends often ask my advise and I think they think of me as stable. I am male but like the toys of both genders. I have little desire to be female other than the dresses may fit better 🙂 I will never have surgery but once Genetic Engineering has advanced to a safe point I’ll probably change my sex, race, species just for the curiosity of it.

Life is enough without building the barriers yourself.

3

I transitioned from female to male 20+ years ago. To your question about still having to change gender: yes, most of us that are binary (see ourselves as male or female) would still transition. Although it is a thought provoking question.
Most of us know from a very early age, 3 or 4, that we are in the wrong body. And going through puberty in the wrong body is a good way to get someone to want to die. Hormone blockers can be stopped and puberty will proceed. At least 2 female to males have stopped taking hormones and have successfully given birth. Male to females can freeze sperm. The physical act of sex has little or nothing to do with transition. Sexual intercourse is NOT the only way to make love.
In most cases surgery is worth the risk. At least top surgery to remove or enhance the breasts.

CS60 Level 7 May 6, 2018
6

I don't think it is societal constraints directly, but rather brain wiring that is altered in gestation and/or in early childhood. Both men and women lay on a spectrum of feminine to masculine. Where it goes haywire is when the brain doesn't match the anatomy. My understanding is, Transgender do NOT see themselves as Gay/Lesbian or Cross Dressing, but having been born with the wrong genitals to match their brain. This adds to people's confusion and puts pressure on some to conform to some norm or new normal.

6

It seems to me that there are so many variables that go into making of the human organism, that it's little wonder, we all turn out so unique. The sex and gender spectrum has been around as long as humans--maybe even before.

2
3

What a collection of emotionally and politically charged words. It is little wonder none of this may be discussed, with the paucity of words used and the multiple meanings they are to carry, even in the same sentence. Even the attempt to preserve a basic meaning of words and lay a groundwork for conversation is skipping through a minefield. I wouldn't touch this with a 12'' Vagina. 😉

3

The way I look at it, sex is basic biology. It is typically (but not always) sufficiently binary for someone with a penis to have sex with someone with a vagina, and to continue to produce new generations of humans for the years to come. Sex is tangible and medically diagnosable.

I see gender as all of the (mostly nonsensical) baggage that we attach to that. It's a socially constructed belief system intended to manipulate people's behaviour - much like religion. The expectations on how you behave, what you drink, what you wear, what jobs you do and how much you get paid for them are all part of gender. Many of these expectations are thankfully being eroded for women. It's okay for women to fix cars, drink pints and watch football these days. It's still questioned when a man cuts hair, drinks alcopops, likes ballet etc.

Some of it's ingrained in patriachic and rape culture, and toxic masculinity. Though some of it even makes some practical sense. Cisgender females don't suffer from unprovoked and unwanted erections during adolescence and early adulthood - the "two sturdy layers of crotched clothing" rule actually makes sense in that scenario. But there's also an element of "Male genitalia are weapons of rape, and (given that they can't be removed and kept locked up somewhere) need to be stowed away securely where they're relatively difficult to access. Female genitalia are benign. They must simply be hidden from view, and then only to avoid provoking arousal in males that might entitle them to rape." And that, ultimately, is why people are still uncomfortable when males wear dresses and skirts, while it's perfectly okay for females to wear trousers.

The fundamental biological differences between male and female are always going to be relevant. Much of the baggage attached to it is becoming anachronistic. And that isn't a bad thing.

Interesting. But what about areas where men don’t wear pants? Kilts come to mind. Or saris. Or grass skirt type of things. Or cultures where both men and women go topless? Is it just our western society that puts such weight on these things?
And if so, why? Is it the patriarchy? I tend to think it is religion putting such harsh limits on people and causing us to judge one another.

@Vickylyn Gender is, of course, skewed by cultural values. The need to store male genitalia under two sturdy layers being a typical western one. Yes, you can find cultures where men effectively wear skirts, but that proves rather than disproves the point: gender is a social construct which exists to apply different rules to males and females. Those rules vary between cultures and suit whatever is that culture's perceived needs.

Culture changes, too. These days, a Scotsman wearing a kilt isn't as universally acceptable as you might think. I used to know a Scotsman who always wore a kilt, and occasionally got grief for it, even in Scotland. The only time it's really acceptable to wear a kilt is at a wedding, or another ceremony where other people are also wearing kilts. If you're doing it 'because everyone else is' then your motives for breaking the gender rules don't come under such close scrutiny. The fact that most people don't vocally object to a man in a kilt doesn't mean that they're comfortable with the situation.

In all honesty, I think a lot of it stems from rape prevention, based on the idea that a male is only one brief lapse of self-control away from sticking his penis inside someone who doesn't want it, and based on the notion that a potential target revealing too much of their body, places undue temptation for him to act that way (AKA victim blaming.) It's a belt and braces approach to preventing humans from attempting to procreate the way a lot of mammals do (for example, dolphins) - through the male forcing themselves upon the female.

I've no doubt that this is one of the reasons why religion takes control over sex. Though I think it does it more to harness the innate human urge for sexual gratification in order to put future generations of bums on pews.

6

I think it goes much deeper than that. We treat sex and sexuality and gender as if they were binary, and that's not the case. There's so much more going on. And while they all overlap, there's much more going on that pull in everything from personality, gender, identity, and all the way down to plumbing. There are so many components, biological, psychological, sociological...

"Assigned roles" have really fucked us up as a society. Men are defined a certain way, women are defined a certain way, and any deviance from that is considered verboten. The problem is, no two people are alike, and right now our bucket labels are only confusing us.

@SACatWalker Huh?

@JustKip waaaay out of your league perhaps. Clinical and ordinary folks are having this conversation daily. Gender and sexuality intersects with EVERYTHING

@JustKip I did. My apologies. I'm glad somebody is paying attention ????.

4

I believe that what you should be referring to is gender non confirming not transgender.
As a mom of a transgender adolescent I can assure you I have asked all the questions you presented. Transgender adolescents receive a ton of therapy before transitioning. Hormone blockers can be reversed easily. Hormone blockers have been used for years in treating early puberty. No reproductive problems have been noted.
A decision to transition would be nice if parents could have the time to weigh their options. That's not how it works. Most of these kids need to transition because in feeling that the are in the wrong body increases depression, self harm and potentially suicide.
If anyone has any questions please feel free to ask me.

I have to ask how a kid knows they are in the wrong body. When I was a kid, I wanted to fly and probably would have told you I should have wings. How do they know before they have even developed? Beyond reproductive organs, what are we talking about when we say male or female?

@Palacinky I was thinking about how we think differently at different stages of development. I am genuinely curious about the evaluations. And how is one defining a masculine or feminine baby? We start to take cues from our environment from the beginning, spend our lives learning from society. Our very language, the definitions we have for the words we use, etc. How can I know I am female in gender without having some preconception of what that means to be female? And also older that monotheism, maybe dating back to the first day a rule of society was made, are the non-conformists, the rebels that challenge the norms, where progress comes from.

"Transgender" is a very broad umbrella term, covering many different flavours of gender variance. "Gender non-conforming" is typically accepted as falling under it, as long as the individual's own sense of gender isn't fully aligned with the sex marker on their birth certificate.

Gender is about identity: the life role that you feel best suited to. Your gender is a matter of sincere identity, and only for you to decide. If someone declares themselves transgender, then they are transgender. By all means question their sincerity, but if it's clear they're being sincere, don't contradict them.

Sex is about biology: when you do something to change your sex to better align it with your gender identity (taking hormones to achieve more female hormone levels or having top or bottom surgery.)

So yes, I think it's reasonable to challenge someone who says they're transsexual when they've done neither of these things (and I know a few who believe that just living full time in their gender role qualifies.) Not an argument I'd get into myself, but I wouldn't contradict someone who said that they weren't. But let's stop trying to steal "transgender" from people who are actually transgender, and redefine it to mean "transsexual."

I accept that there are various conflicting points of view, and it's easy to be swayed by either argument. But accepting the right to self-identify, as trans or as a woman, is central. For trans people to complain that others don't respect their identities as men or women, while simultaneously policing who falls under the trans umbrella? Well that's just a massive double standard.

Trans women: How dare you say I'm not a woman!
Also trans women: You're not trans!

@NicoleCadmium The reason that transgender may be considered to not include gender-nonconforming individuals is because trans refers to transition, some form of changing or moving, or being "on the other side of" the gender you were assigned at birth. Liking certain toys, clothes, etc doesn't necessarily involve that movement, and is not about being a different gender. On its own, gender-nonconformity is about (not conforming to) society's expectations and perception, not the individual making any kind of social or physical transition to align themself with the gender(s) they already were. However, being non-binary, I recognize it can be a gray area, and leave it to individuals to determine themselves whether they identify as transgender or not. They are separate things which can overlap. Not all gender-nonconforming people are transgender, and not all transgender people are gender-nonconforming (I don't conform to a single binary sex, but many trans people do, as much as any cis person that wouldn't be considered gender-nonconforming)

While transgender refers to transitioning or identifying as a different gender, transsexual applies the same to sex. Just as someone is still transgender even if they haven't come out and socially transitioned yet, someone who doesn't identify with their physical sex, such that they may desire or intend to physically transition, is still transsexual even if they haven't acted on it yet.

@Aerihk I have to disagree in part. This is the first time I've seen it suggested that 'transgender' comes with any implicit requirement to transition from one gender to another. Indeed, the whole notion of changing gender is incorrect. Gender Reassignment Surgery is a massive misnomer: nobody's gender changes, their sex does to better align it with their gender, which remains unchanged. This is presumably why Gender Confirmation Surgery has become the preferred term, and Sex Reassignment Surgery is at least more factually correct.

Your gender identity is the point of reference (though it can be fluid throughout life.) Whether you feel it's strongly enough at odds with your physical body to do something medical about it, or whether you feel the need to live in the traditional binary opposite role are simply outcomes of that core identity manifesting. There are plenty of people out there who wish to transition but, for one reason or another (often family and/or fear of prejudice or rejection) don't. They're still trans.

But I have to agree in another, in that (as long as it avoids appropriation) sincere identity is sacrosanct. When it comes to gender, you are what you sincerely say you are. So you can be non-binary, you can be transgender, you can be neither or both. A lot of transsexuals cease to identify as transgender post-surgery. Their body now aligns with their gender identity, so it makes perfect sense.

Labels are great as long as you avoid appropriation, and don't go around slapping them on other people, telling them what they are and what they aren't.

1

I like my assigned role and I am in full compliance.

4

You've made some very compelling points here... And ultimately, I think it's society that needs to change.

Just as you suggested, it would seem there are some terrible risks involved in reassignment of one's gender- and one would guess that none of that would be necessary, if society were more accepting of the full spectrum of sexualty...

In any case, I think it's shameful that there is such an issue, of people being marginalized, or worse, for simply being different.

I never really thought about it before; but the answer to your initial question might be "yes".

I can only guess, though. My experience doesn't include any of those struggles...

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:68598
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.