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Trans and non-believers

Should one assume that the godless population would be more accepting and open to differences or the society construct makes people as ignorant and mean as religious believers?

By Michellefrusa5
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22 comments

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13

There are plenty of misogynists and common or garden bigots within organised atheism unfortunately.

8

I started to reply to the mansplaining cis dude who got his education on trans topics in the chow line at the mess hall, but decided to block him instead. I just don't have the patience.

MollyBell Level 7 May 30, 2018
8

Unfortunately ignorance and hate knows no bounds. Just because non-believers are "enlightened" in one aspect does not seem to elude to them being anymore accepting in other regards.

Mea Level 7 May 29, 2018
7

Very difficult to generalize given that human beings are so complicated. No one should know this better than you. ☺

Sticks48 Level 9 May 29, 2018
4

Only slightly so. You can be godless and still be a jerk. Being godless just means that being a jerk is your choice.

4

me, personally, i believe it has more to do with ones political Outlook than religious affiliation.

Kojaksmom Level 8 June 1, 2018

I believe it's even more about social outlook than anything else. It is about what people will say if they see me with a trans woman. For men, it's a lot of time, does that makes me gay???? The last one i always think it's so funny because my attraction is to straight manly man.
My last boy friend is a british actor and he was very confident with is sexuality and certainly not gay.

I have to agree with Michelle, I know "conservatives" who are pro GLBTQ+

My parents are devout and even think homosexuality is a sin, that's none of their business.

They also make care packages for foster kids and happily make care packages for little boys, little girls and gender neutral care packages.

@educatedredneck I think it depends on where you live.here in the south, conservatives are Evangelical Christians .very ,very few exceptions. I personally have never met a conservative/republican atheist in person ever. if there are any they're totally in the closet and would never admit it to anyone.

@Kojaksmom maybe, I lived on the AL/GA border for a bit and met a handful of conservative atheists. Obviously I can't know how they were with most Christians, but I know one small business owner didn't hid the fact he raised three children to be atheist.

I've also talked with academics who don't feel safe in being public about any conservative leanings.

Maybe conservative atheists face backlash from all sides and many just play it safe?

4

Oh goody.... this is so interesting. There is one dude who needs to chill. I don't dislike him because he doesn't like trans. I just believe that he is an ignoramus, because saying that liking a trans is because you are gay, is really stup.
And making affirmation because it was on u tube it's even worth.
Most dr. are in the dark about transgenderism, we frequently have to give them guidance on many subject related to us.
As an example, I had to explain my ob/gyn how my surgery was done, because it is so well done that there no difference if you compare it to a cis woman post hysterectomy.
Anywho, I believe discussions like this are an eye opener. There is a lot of good people to follow and just few that are misguided, but still worth listening. They are good subjects on human nature studies.
Merci pour le support. A la bonne entendeur, salut.

3

I guess that depends on which "society construct" we're talking about. Sadly, in the US, society is dominated still by believers. They are numerous and organized and have made great inroads into government. This scares the shit out of me. This "morally conservative" or whatever you want to call it, Christian majority have great influence over societal norms and their "morals" are rather closed-minded when it comes to accepting differences.

IAMGROOT Level 7 May 29, 2018
2

Absolutely Not..transphobia is in every segment of the population..

Charlene Level 9 Dec 12, 2019
2

Godless people are sliiiiiiiiiiiightly more willing take in evidence that will cause them question their priors. Since all human beings are terrible at doing so, you can't comfortably make assumptions about any particular atheist/agnostic.

There's a growing consensus within progressive communities overthrow a lot of culturally constructed identities, but buying into that consensus doesn't mean that any one person has educated themselves about it, plus the Venn diagram between progressives and godless people overlaps heavily but not completely. Finally as @Perspicalidocious said, TERFs gonna TERF, so there's that.

ScottRP Level 5 July 28, 2018
2

I would like to think that a lot of rejection is driven by religious influence. In a godless world I believe rejection would/should decrease. ..... Je ne sais pas mais je t'aime quand même

IamNobody Level 8 May 30, 2018

@Lucifer_M Je ne te parlais pas...... Merci quand même

@Lucifer_M nope

2

I'd guess there will be significantly less anti-trans people among atheists and agnostics, but just bc someone may have figured out a few things doesn't mean they'll every figure everything out. I've met many atheists who I think are really anti-theists bc they're really angry at the god they abandoned.

There's also a lot of rhetoric and idiocy around all political issues right now.

I fully support trans people. I also know a lot about military medical regulations and I'm not remotely apologetic for thinking we shouldn't make special exemptions for anyone based on politics hubris or being politically correct. Some, but not all, post-op trans people require specialized Rx. That Rx severely limits weapons training and can limit where and how long someone can deploy. The US military kicks anyone diagnosed with insulin dependent diabetes out of the military in a few months for the exact same reasons.

I don't think we should allow extra special exemptions for anyone. There's already a process for case by case exemptions that can be reviewed by relevant professionals but until medical research figures out a better solution than what I've seen for post-op trans Rx then I'm against some trans people being in the military. Even some who know I've supported GLBTQ rights think I'm a bigoted ass bc of this, oh well. Hey, maybe medical research will solve this in a few months or years

Probably more info than anyone wanted from a simple post in Love and Relationships, but I got a little tipsy while finishing up a few things tonight so there's a small rant.

Rx for trans are no different than a cis woman on the pill. Post surgery transgender need only one pill a day that all. Shouldn't be a problem with deployment.

@Michellefrusa It's always possible things have changed or what I read wasn't accurate. What I read is Rx for some post-op trans people requires refrigeration and expires in a few months. Do you think ALL Rx for trans people is not like that today? Do you have a link please? I'm not super smart on birth control, I've never dated a woman on the pill although I do think some Rx birth control does require stable temperatures and you shouldn't take BC that's several months old? Serious questions on all that.

Plus that Rx can impact mood, Rx that impacts emotions automatically negates all weapons training for 90 days. Military docs have no say at first on that, when many drugs are prescribed at first or the script changes slightly, the system automatically bans them from all weapons training. Docs can risk their licenses by negating that exemption after 60 days. So if people are stable on their Rx, regardless of why they're prescribed it, then I'd support them serving.

@educatedredneck at the beginning of transition yes there is an injectable hormone to take and to keep refrigerated, and you take on shot a month, but when your hormones level reach the same level than a cis women you stop taking this kind and take just a pill or stick a weekly patch. There is no need to keep any of those refregirated. An enlisted and deployed person could keep up to 3 or more months in their belongings.
As the mood changes, it not any different than a woman getting in her cycle. Some feel it more than other. Nobody feel the effects the same way. Only in movies you will see a transgender getting bunker because she don't have her hormones. But yes if this was happening for a long period that transgender would get very depressed, somewhat like a woman getting menopausal.

@Michellefrusa thanks for the factual information.

Again, please correct me if I'm wrong on the facts but I believe that beginning period of transition can last over a year? I think medical professionals used to mandate living fully transitioned (forgive me if I don't know the correct lingo) and taking hormone therapy for an extended period of time. Then there's the surgery and recovery from surgery, stabilization on new medication...

That means someone in the military wouldn't be able to train with weapons or deploy to many locations for well over a year, maybe even three years or more?

If I have all the facts correct, then my objection stands. People diagnosed with cancer that medical professionals expect a full recovery in a year also forced out of the military until they're stable and can fulfill all aspects of being in the military. My objection is giving any group special treatment.

There's already policies for individual exemptions. I was given an age waiver but everything else was 100% and medical experts knew my age wouldn't impact my non-combat job. BUT I had to prove I could do every aspect of the new job and there wasn't a special exemption for groups of people that would impact the military as a whole.

If everything you're saying is correct, then post-op people who are stable on their medications should be able to serve in the military. I met a sergeant who claimed to have a M-F Soldier who is a PT stud, but don't know any of the details.

Please correct any of my language if it's wrong

There's one service member whose medical details I know very well had to leave the military for nearly two years bc they were diagnosed with cancer. A full recovery was expected and they came back in as soon as they could. That person has several combat deployments and has been honored for valor in combat.

They came back in a combat, heavy physical job and they're really a scary workout freak now. I hope cancer never comes back, but that's just an example that the military doesn't and shouldn't make special exemptions for entire groups of people.

@Palacinky well I rarely engage people who simply dismiss what's being said as "completely incorrect" without any discussion, especially when Michellefrusa seems to be saying I'm not completely incorrect. I freely acknowledge I'm not an expert on estrogen or Rx for trans people, but I also won't dismiss people or what they say without actual research.

Your "well know secret" about anabolic steroids doesn't remotely fit my experience with the military and I'm betting I have a little more experience in the US military than you do. Military are randomly tested for various drugs including steroids, there have been a few cases where people supervising the UAs have helped cover up drug use and there's also new designer drugs created specifically to dodge UAs.

I'm also curious what you think the rate of suicide and violence is in among men in the military.

If you want to have a respectful dialectic, I'm totally game. Such discussions usually take a long time but IME can be a lot of fun and very informative especially if people acknowledge what they believe they absolutely know v what they merely think is true, then you get into acknowledging what you think is likely valid, likely common but not universal...and all that would be very flexible and open to challenge and acknowledging error. If you merely want to declare thins wrong solely based on what you think, you're welcome to create echo chambers with people who will applaud what you say but I'll mostly ignore what you post.

@Palacinky Btw Michelle already gave me good information on post op Rx, and I thanked her for the factual information. Your personal anecdotal experiences doesn't mean every single trans person will have the same experiences.

Even if we've developed more stable hormone therapy for post-op people, every other point I've made about weapons training, preparation for surgery, recovery from surgery can still be valid.

@Michellefrusa You underestimate the fear induced by menopausal women on the loose.smile027.gif

After a bit of half-hearted research, I'll clarify just a bit but still mostly stand by what I've said.

US military deploys to areas that never get to 50 degrees, places that never get below 90 degrees and places that hit 120 in the day and under 40 at night. I probably should have said consistent temperature for Rx instead of refrigerated. Medical refrigerators have built in monitors that can be programmed to alert if the temp varies by a single degree. I think our fridges when deployed would flash with 1.5 degrees of variance and sound an alarm at 4 degrees.

Medical professionals review every service member for every deployment already. If electricity or mail will be an issue for any deployment, then medical professionals review every person deploying for those issues. Again we don't allow anyone with various medical restrictions from serving in the military.

It seems like controlling temperature is good for some, but not all estrogen, but possibly essential for testosterone. lol and if anyone wants to continue the discussion, I'll provide links. Testosterone can separate into composite ingredients, we're still studying if remixing the ingredients impacts the efficacy of the Rx. I don't know enough about medical issues around transitioning or post-op trans people to say much about people who need estrogen. Considering the impact some bad Rx can have on emotions, it makes sense to err on the side of being cautious and not allow anyone who medical issues can likely interfere with

Again, I don't think there should be special exemptions for groups of people unless we can make similar exemptions for people with similar circumstances. There's existing policies for individual exemptions and I know of several extreme medical exemptions but experts reviewed their medical requirements for the specific job or mission.

If people want links on temperature requirements for testosterone, ingredients/oil separating...I'll be glad to provide them. If someone merely wants to attack, claim I'm "uneducated" and not discuss what I'm actually saying, well that's just nifty and they can get the last self-righteous word and I'll ignore them until someone who wants a genuine discussion comes around.

2
2

Assuming can be risky, and I see no evidence to base such an assumption on. What does Atheism have to do with biases and prejudices? Religious bias does play an additional factor in judging anyone who is different though. There can be cultural and social biases for sure, and trans people are a minority within a minority, so information and exposure to their normal human needs and challenges are not as well known or understood by the general public. I try to raise awareness and promote tolerance and acceptance, but the world has a lot of closed minds.

2

Yes. The only reason religious people hate the LGBTQ community is because the bible (they believe) tells them too. Remove the bible from the equation, we're all equal.

Clauddvon Level 7 May 29, 2018

I disagree. Many people have a lot of biases and prejudices outside of what religion they might have fallen victim to as well. Being a non-believer does not automatically make a person super moral and accepting, and many people are still swayed by misguided local social ideas about women, blacks, immigrants, and other "different' kinds of people. In time we hope this will improve, just like over time we hope religion will fade away to make a happier world with more peace in it.

@Silverwhisper "Many people have a lot of biases and prejudices outside of what religion they might have fallen victim to as well." Where do you think these biases and prejudices are rooted from? People aren't born racists or homophobes. They're learned behaviors.

@Palacinky Agreed. And those religions are typically the ones you find the people who are the most. They either ARE or WERE affiliated with those institutions at some point in their lives, or they lived with people who were affiliated and taught the hate.

I disagree because I have noticed that many people who are anti-trans seem to display a lot of fear - fear that the black and white reality of "only two sexes" is crumbling for them, and the fear makes them angry. They are afraid of living in a reality where sexes are fluid, where they might be "fooled" or "tricked" into thinking one person is a different gender than their DNA, afraid that they cannot automatically identify a person's gender on sight, afraid they might be next to one at any given moment and never really know. And the biggest fear of all - that they might become sexually attracted to someone who is "fooling" them about their gender and that might mean that they themselves are not 100% their own perceived sexual orientation. Few of these people even bring religion into it - they merely want to wipe the transgendered from the face of the earth because it makes them very, very upset and uncomfortable that they exist at all, as it threatens their reality and their notion of "the way things are supposed to be".

@exilesky I can definitely respect that analysis.

2

If we can agree that (certain) religious people feel that they are taking the "moral high-ground" by standing firm against non-cis individuals, and cite their morality book as proof...then I think it makes sense that if you don't follow a book which, by their reading, preaches against it, you're less likely to have a moral objection. However, I know that there are many shades of grey about this topic on both sides of the divide. For a different angle on the topic... I like to consider who is part of a majority vs minority group. The "in" group, and "out" group, as it were. Members of a minority group, I would propose, likely have an easier time empathizing with other minorities, and this may help them to be more accepting of others, including those who happen to be minorities for different reasons. But, as a rule of thumb, it's good to recognize that it comes down to the individual, and their shade of grey. (Says a person who is male, middle class, and white...and a minority in my own ways, including religious stance).

0

It is hard to find what makes one happy and able to be glad to be alive. Once this is found all support should be given to the individual as they are a part of our community. Life does not have to be any harder than we make it for ourselves, others should be able to support others no matter how diverse they are. Remember that if we were all the same all men would be chasing the same woman,there would be many pissed off women.

0

I'd say generally yes to that, but there are closed minded people in all walks of life. My personal view of LGBTQ (long before that was even an acronym) was severely colored and guided by religious belief and my attitude completely changed when I shed myself of it.

IAMGROOT Level 7 June 25, 2019

LOL! I just noticed how old this thread is. I replied to it over a year ago. SMH.

0

Most but not all Atheists cast aside sexism and racism taught in most religions....patriarchal males hold onto sexism as pzry of their male Entitlement feelings to own a vagina and all of a womans body....trans are still rare enough to escape sexist bigotry in the 25,% of USA who are Atheists....most remain in the closet as do LGBT folks and there is some solidarity in the proverbial privacy closets....bad news is TRUMPolini has deleted gender identity and sexual orientation questions from the 2020 Census....spot surveys only asked these questions since 2014....also aging gays are deleted from OLDER AMERICANS PROGRAMS

0

Most people are ignorant however a non religous person is more open to change

Ignorant of what?

@Bobby9 someone who happens to be trans

@skepticaljerk Perhaps, I don't think there is a relationship between non-belief and anything else, per se.

0

The qualities that make many people atheists also make them more likely to be open and accepting of differences in people. People who arrive at atheism through logic and reason are more likely to use logic and reason where others judge based on emotion and “gut feelings.”
Obviously this doesn’t apply to ALL atheists.

0

Definitely some of both it's all on the nights when motivator and reinforces another

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