it really does annoy me that Libertarians and Republicans alike never talk about corporate welfare. if trickle down economics does not work, and it's been proven that it doesn't, then libertarianism is a dead fish floating in the water.

@Kojaksmom Libertarianism works when those with the largest amount of the wealth reinvest it into the economy in ways that benefit society as a whole. The current system takes the money out of the economy and puts it into useless things like the casino stockmarket that treats the amassing of wealth as a game of who's got the bigger bank account, mega yacht, mansion, etc.

@Surfpirate exactly! They say the government is the one that causes more problems ,but I'm not sure if it's not the other way around. if we could count on the human animal to do the right thing , and be responsible and take other people and the greater good into consideration ,we wouldn't need so much government interference

@Kojaksmom these companies only got so big from government propping them up. Now we're in a tough place with a bunch of people who have lots of money from shady means. How is more government going to help?

@Adamct who said more government was a good idea? Not me but I do think that government has to step in where business and elites have stepped away from their responsibilities and refused to pay their fair share. Government and Corporate America have merged to a great extent, just look at who is being appointed to head the regulatory agencies and the depraved level of corporate welfare. Not fascist yet but give it a little more time and who knows.

@Adamct you could try making them pay taxes .Libertarians are violently against all taxes.Republicans call multi billion-dollar businesses job creators. libertarian see the opportunity for child labor whenever possible.

@Kojaksmom a Libertarian would not be in favour of child labour because the opportunity cost of having a child do a menial task instead of getting an education would be a long term net loss to society. My home country of Canada has child labour laws, affordable post secondary education that may be going back to free depending upon who wins the next election, universal health care and potentially a no user pay drug plan. The reason Canadians are in favour of these government services is because it maximizes the potential earning power of Canadians and that means it maximizes the tax base to provide these services, it's all quite pragmatic although the government spins it as altruism.
As a Lefty Libertarian I support these initiatives because business no longer wants to pay it's fair share to provide the roads, health care and education initiatives that are necessary to promote a free and open society. Libertarianism is about Liberty and can anyone be free when others are in chains, history shows us that it is not the case. If you want to be free then you have to work towards making everyone else free as well or it becomes a game of crabs in the bucket.

@Kojaksmom I agree corporate welfare has to stop. This circling the wagons for the wealthy is gone too far income equality is important to all. The only way to bring this economy out of the rut is to get more money to the people Doing the work.

@iamjc Not necessarily. And ant is simply not equipped to understand aircraft, space travel, etc. An ant doesn't understand that there are other planets or even a universe. All it understands is what is right in front of it and what's it's little brain can process. Similarly, we can only understand that which we see and that which our brains are biologically equipped to understand. If we are the product of evolution/natural selection, then our brains developed to help us pass on our genes, NOT to understand what exists beyond our universe, if anything.

Personally I suspect there is some intelligence that put the whole thing in motion, but again - no way to prove or disprove it at this point.

This is the stupidest thing I have ever seen. It's like a meme of all the buzzwords conservatives use when satirically describing the radical left.

Conservative does not require obedience of religion. It means keeping traditional values alive. I am the child of an immigrant and a first generation American. Women have the same rights men have. Universal healthcare is a shitty idea. Britain just killed a kid to prove it. All illegal immigrants by definition are criminals. Intelligence should be described by noticing patterns and seeing what works and what doesn't. Socialism doesn't work in non-homogenous societies for instance.

But what you've described is a caricature of what you believe a conservative is. And perhaps the alt-right lines up fairly close to that. For example, Ronald Reagan, Mitt Romeny, Paul Ryan, etc. are conservatives but they aren't racists and they don't hold the beliefs you outlined above any more than liberals are socialists.

@Adamct oh, for fuck's sake, that kid in Britain was already dead.

@memorylikeasieve true

@David1955 It happens so often with political parties that they become entrenched with scum. I mentioned in another comment just look at congressional voting records on the years budget to know who the real bad guys are.

Like it or not, this is what conservative values are right now. Their elected leadership embraces it. Trump embraces even worse. This is not a caricature, this is the living, breathing platform of conservatives today. If my leadership embraced these views I would no longer call myself a liberal, progressive or a Democrat. You don't like the implication? Deny them. This situation has been coming since Reagan, dog whistling racism, denigrating the poor, misogyny greed and corruption. We have problems on the left also but we prosecute them when they are exposed, conservatives elect them.

Radical Centrist

@David1955 It's a meme response to OP calling himself radical centrist.

American Dem Soc, or just straight up Dem Soc?

6% is more than statistically significant. So it is an increase. I was thinking more of the neckbeard athiest libertarian meme. Of which many I know are like that. That said I am in godless California. I know plenty of "libertarians" who believe in god and they are more republican in my opinion. They just want to be different. They don't understand companies can do whatever they want. They support occupying foreign countries indefinitely.

@Adamct Definition of common: "occurring, found, or done often; prevalent. So 6% is . . . done often or prevalent. "Statistically significant" is not the same as "common"

@NoMagicCookie I feel they are common in my area at least.

@iamjc I oppose wealth distribution (the democrats big spiel) but I really identify more with libertarianism. Pro-gun rights, pro-individual rights, pro-leave me the fuck alone and stop stealing my shit. The way I've heard it is a conservative believes the poor are poor because they are lazy or stupid and a progressive believes the poor are poor because of oppression. I firmly believe any individual regardless of their background can succeed. That said I do recognize there are communities such as American ghettos make it more difficult to succeed. Given the failures of the current systems in place in cities like New York or Chicago there must be a better technique.

@iamjc I don't proclaim to know this technique. I personally lean towards ending subsidized housing and lightening building and housing restrictions would be a good start but also encouraging people to move farther from where they've always known.

@iamjc the homeless are largely mentally ill or drug addicts. What should be done with them short of rounding them up and institutionalizing them? It's typically poor life choices that put them there.

@Adamct Yes, in your area. If the vast majority of your population is atheist, that is an anticipated outcome but it is not representative of the big picture (United States). In my area It is likely there are no atheist who identify as libertarian (I would never claim to 'know" there are no atheists libertarian but based on the numbers, as I live in a black (theistic) state, this is a reasonable expectation. That is how we achieve the 6% average.

@Adamct Mentally unstable people are known for poor life choices, that's because they are A. poor and B mentally unstable. Just because your economic system doesn't work for the make them less American, and just because they have no power doesn't make them any less human. Conservative war cry:"I've got mine, screw you."

That's it^^^.

I always hear rights are being taken away. What rights?
Rand Paul couldn't get the government to cut the budget by 1% my guys can't get any support.

@Adamct States are systematically eroding women's right to abortion, and birth control. Health care for pregnancy and birth is being systematically taken away. LGBT right to adopt children is being outlawed in several states, and they can be denied housing, jobs, wedding cakes. Conservatives want to outlaw same sex marriage. Conservatives are being ruled by evangelical Christians who want to create a theocracy in America. I could never align with these principles.

@Wisewoman3 If it's their firm belief that abortion is murder then that isn't a right to have. I don't agree with it but I can't condemn them for wanting to ban it. Having to pay for one's own birth control or health care is not taking it away. I firmly disagree with LGBT people being denied the right to adopt any child. Though a private company or individual should not have to deal with anyone with whom they disagree. But they should have to accept the consequences of it such as boycotts. So long as marriage is recognized by the state it should be anyone's right to enter into said contract with whomever they want.

@Adamct Abortion is a right. That doesn't mean a woman has to do it. If you don't believe in abortion, don't have on, but don't legislate it away, because you don't believe in it. When a poor woman only has a choice between an unwanted pregnancy, and no way to prevent it, because Planned Parenthood is being taken away, and her insurance is taken away, she will get an abortion, which conservatives are against. It makes no sense. I am a midwife and I worked in a community clinic that cared for underserved, uninsured, homeless, refugees, victims of domestic abuse, women forced into prostitution, women with multiple STDs, women who were addicted, and with no money for food or medicine. We had social workers, nutritionists, programs to help them find safe homes, and for them to get birth control. When they could not even afford our birth control, we sent them to Planned Parenthood. I went with them to protect them from the jeering, hateful conservative Christians blocking their path. Now, Planned Parenthood is being taken away, along with much of the assistance that we gave them to help them get into school, get jobs, and change their lives. That is because a bunch of white, Christian, conservative males are legislating what women can and cannot do with their bodies. Maybe you aren't a conservative that we see today, running the country. Maybe you are a reasonable, thoughtful, realistic, fair, honorable conservative, but, you would be rare. The house and senate are full of spineless toadies, who surely know they are enabling a president who is a vile, soulless, ignorant, demigod, who is taking America into a deep pit. A man who is even questionable as a republican. He is a Trumpist. Eisenhower would be turning over in his grave.

@Wisewoman3 In their eyes abortion is killing a baby. I've seen these guys, full grown men, cry because they believe that Planned Parenthood is committing genocide of babies on their soil with their money. I'm not saying I agree with them and I'm not saying what they do is right. But they have a very different worldview than you and that can be hard to wrap one's head around. There are other concerns like that Planned Parenthood gets government funds yet donates to Democratic candidates many times what the NRA does to Republican. That's not okay. I fail to see why Planned Parenthood can't be funded by donations from the über wealthy celebrities who proclaim to support it. They can put their money where their mouth is.
The neo-cons and neo-libs in congress deserve nothing but our absolute contempt. Look only at politians who approve each years budget to know who the real bad guys are.

@Adamct I understand that they don't believe in it, but they are a bunch of rich, Christian, white men, who are deciding what a woman can do with her body. The problems with that are: it is a law, so they are blocking something that is a law.
They are men who are legislating women's bodies
They are inserting religion into it
They don't believe in science, unless it benefits them. They prefer religion to science.
They are old men, who don't even understand how a woman's body works.
These are men, who have no business legislating women's bodies, so I don't care if they don't believe in abortion .Tough shit. They don't have to believe it, get one, or participate in doing one, , so they need to butt out

As far as they are concerned its child killing. Child killers aren't held in high esteem. Failing to recognize where they come from or how they feel isn't helping. That said there is no middle ground here short of no government funds for any entity that supports or carries out abortions at least that way they aren't forced to pay for it too.

@Adamct I've seen grown men cry on TV because they didn't have enough money to purchase a G-4 (personal jet, Orel Roberts, a conservative). Prove to me a fetus is a human being. As for government funds for abortion, that is total bullshit, the ACA forbids it and planned parenthood doesn't use government funds for it. YOU are why we are atheists, because of your religious beliefs.

I dunno Wally I bet it’s a trade off. Like bein spiritually blind should make you extra politically smart shouldn’t it? Anyway no call for alarm. Pretty sure it’s just a coincidence that all the religious zealots love conservative talking points. And while we’re at it can we talk about how tough us white guys have it these days? ?

@Wurlitzer given that progressives openly and endlessly bash religion is it any surprise they side with conservatives? They have a right to live as they want so long as they aren't harming anyone or forcing their views on someone else.

And no they shouldn't be forced to make a gay wedding cake.

@WallyWorld If you look at my profile you might notice I'm not white. That's also an ad hominem. Your own actions are very disrespectful. Definitely in opposition to conservatism which supports having manners.

@Adamct you ask a question and don’t like the answer you get. You take a light hearted response out to @wurlitzer out of context

Respect isn’t the default. You gotta earn it. Keep trying tho

Edited to add: If manners was truly a conservative position, the buffoon in the White House wouldn’t be there. Seems to me the word you were looking for is hypocrisy

@WallyWorld Trump is not a conservative. Also that's the problem. Respect should be the default. That's what's wrong with society. That's what a conservative literally believes.

@Adamct I’m sorry but nothing you initially said to me makes any sense whatsoever. So Christians became conservative because they don’t like the way progressives think of them? No, the very reason we don’t think highly of them is because they’re actively trying to drag us into the past. They’re the essence of conservatism intrinsically: regressive fucks who are quite at home with trump and the rest of the conservatives because they wrote the book themselves. I know trump isn’t truly conservative but he’s playing the part well enough to fool most of you it seems, so you tell us whose problem that is. And who the hell asked you to make a gay wedding cake? Y’all spend entirely too much time fearing that ?

@Adamct It’s clear you literally don’t know the definition of literally

@Adamct Baby Hands Hitler is a direct result of people like you with their twisted logic. He didn't get there by accident, you voted for him. A vote for a Republican is a vote for a Trump enabler, simple as that. Maybe in the times of Bush (a complete idiot) I could have a rational point by point debate over conservatism vs progressives but since Nov 2016 that ship has sailed. It will be decades before we can undo what you and Trump have done.