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I'm sure that we all agree with this:

Infoguy211 8 Oct 29
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If you give a fuck at all about your fellow human beings and care anything about this planet, then you can not support Trump. Trump is the enemy. Not blue or red, but evil fucking orange.

Umbral Level 8 Oct 31, 2018

I don't agree. I think taxes should be based on income not vague concepts like 'middle class', and I think people with high incomes should pay a lot more. Similarly, there are plenty of socialists who think the penal system is useless and 'crime' should be redefined. If you don't want 'open borders', don't destroy countries so that their populations are forced to become refugees. Liberals are not often socialists.

CeliaVL Level 7 Oct 30, 2018

The right doesn't want open borders either. So who opened up Europe's borders if not liberals? What caused the mass migration was the collapse of Lybia which was done by NATO whose reasoning was liberal eg "freedom from Gaddafi" who provided free education and medical with best economy in Africa. Merkel's "all welcome" stance was lunacy.

powder Level 8 Oct 29, 2018

@OwlInASack no doubt the destruction of Lybia was a neocon war, right wing. But as always, they go for "humanitarian reasons" to pacify the hand wringers.
Lybia was a stable country like Syria and Iraq. Dictators led them but old dictators who were into nation building in their old age, not the violent radicals of their youth. Yes they were strong, hard headed leaders as all successful leaders in the ME have to be. Lybia, like Assad's Syria and Hussain's Iraq, was secular in that minorities could exist and not get wiped out by a dominant Islam. Where did Gaddafi's gold go? What happened to the African dinar?
Africa is still recovering from colonialists so the solution is more colonial intervention? Perhaps we can try removing global corporations from raping these lands, let them have their revolutions by themselves and sort themselves out.
The lunacy of Merkel was opening borders and actually saying all refugees would be welcome in Germany. Aust went the other way, locking them up on small Pacific islands. There is a middle ground as both extremes are crazy.
The Syrian people do not want the US there, you are not helping nor invited. Spend your humanitarian help at home where it is needed and stop supporting regimes/ groups who fight with god on their side. The world has had a gutful of US intervention. The track record is not that great.

@OwlInASack reminds me of the old joke; why was the US so sure Saddam had WMD(gas)? They still had the receipts.
The middle ground is secure borders by managing immigration. The best way to combat poverty is to let those countries exploit their own resources and gift them technology to supply power, clean water and shelter. Economic migrants are the go getters which are draining the human resource. Dictators, isolate them eg every Saudi embassy should be shut down as they have abused that privilege to operate them. No easy answers. If I had a magic wand I would simply redirect military industrial complex resources into making renewable energy and robotic housing and gardens, clean up our oceans. Consumerism is killing us. I lean left in most areas but this PC crap went too far, people got jack of it and over corrected by swinging wildly right.
Apologies for assuming you were from the US.

@OwlInASack Political correctness will stifle debate. The obvious example is if you criticise Israel you are howled down as antisemitic no matter how reasonable the criticism is. Criticise Islam (ideology) you hate Muslims (people). Migration is good if it's managed. Large numbers very quickly does affect the host societies and clash cultures, it's unplanned. People are not asked. By offering support to these people, however noble, is a reaction on your part. I would prefer conscious action rather than forced reaction. In your own words despots rape countries yet money talks, look at Saudi Arabia. They have gotten away with murder and interfering with a corpse in an embassy because they have money which we, civilized world, happily accept.
Migrants are always net contributes to a country? Not in the short term. The fact is that Iraq, Lybia and Syria were stable countries and relatively prosperous. Foreign forces intervened and destabilised them the result being a massive refugee issue. If left alone they would have had their own revolutions in their own time. We still think we can force democracy on feudal societies. That we know better. The best leaders lead by example which people aspire to. America was the shinning light but those days are over. Syria was a shinning light for the middle east; secular where minorities could exist side by side. Lybia was the same for Africa. I'm talking just prior before they went to shit. No doubt unpleasant getting to that stage but that's where they were at. But dictorships are not PC, democracy is much better so let's force the issue. Didn't work there won't work sth America. Already rumblings by the yanks to get a coup going in Venezuela in between complaining about percieved interference in their national politics??????? I honestly don't know how they keep a straight face.

@OwlInASack displaced peoples is only going to get worse this century due to ecological degradation. I don't have the solution but we need to be pragmatic. Some situations will call for right wing action, and some will call for protection of individual rights to be defended....left wing action. I truly believe kids are the answer. You judge a society on how they treat their most disadvantaged and kids have little rights. The problem is they grow into adults. Stop indoctrinating kids and we can rid the world of racism, sexism, inequality.....all taught behaviours. Communism didn't work, but either is capitalist consumerism. With robotics and renewable energy there is no reason self sufficient communities with robotic gardens which has the potential to kill consumer driven societies. No need to work to make money. It's a nice dream.
Been good talking to you. Take care

Merkel's position has its roots in history. Nazi Germany forces many people to flee to avoid certain death. So it is understandable that the chancellor wanted to make a statement that distances the modern "good" Germany from the old Nazi version.

@PontifexMarximus makes sense. A shame Israel didn't have the same attitude.
I still think her very public "all welcome" statement didn't help though.


Oh, you silly, ignorant folk. Money is what will save America and if you can just be patient and let rich folk increase their wealth a little more, it's gonna trickle down through your fingers like the proverbial manna from heaven. You gotta have faith. Don't think about the middle-class anymore; that's gone with the dinosaurs. They weren't much use to society with all their holy-god values and no money. Didn't you read about the Good Samaritan? He could help the poor because he was rich. And what will help the rich keep that money the poor so badly need? Guns, guns and more guns. And a bit more faith in money. What's education gonna do for you except turn your sons into faggots! Equality, ditto! Like we didn't believe in evolution. So stop all this mamby-pamby 'we need to vote' nonsense and stay home on Tuesday. Heck, stay home every day. That money's coming up as sure as sores on Stormy's vagina, you wait.

brentan Level 8 Oct 29, 2018

That seems reasonable. Unfortunately, we are not in a sensible age.

JimG Level 8 Oct 29, 2018
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