No progressives are not stupid for what they want. They are stupid because they always go about it wrong and end up with zip. They are stupid because they want it all at once, and it won't happen. It's why we lose all too often. I want all of those things too, but big changes come with generational change. You have to go for it a little at a time. You will never get all you want in a country this large and this diverse. The only way democracy works is nobody gets everything they want.

@Sticks48 Easy to say when you’re not one of the 10s of millions living in fear or poverty or without healthcare or daycare with a shitty paying job and police and prison and abuse and addiction and crappy or no housing or any of a hundred other indignities capitalism injects into your daily life.

@Bobbyzen I believe in a social/democracy. Socialism DOES NOT WORK! Even China figured that out. You don't pay attention. YOU WILL NEVER GET IT ALL AT ONCE AND THIS IS WHY YOU LOSE WAY MORE OFTEN THAN YOU WIN. You have the same mindset as a greedy person.

@Sticks48 And how has incrementalism worked out? More incarcerated. More in poverty. More women dying in childbirth. More mass murders. More addicts. More dying in wars. Much more profits for corporations who peddle war and weapons. Seriously man, you gonna lecture on how to overcome the systems of oppression that extract resources from the ground, children from their families, people from their homes all in the name of profit by saying we need to take baby steps? Change doesn’t work that way. It has to be forced.

@Bobbyzen A President can only get what the Congress will give them. As much as I would love a government run health care system,i it won't happen even if Bernie wins. He wouldn't even get enough Democrats to vote for it to pass it, why do you think Obama came up with the plan he did and had Dems and most Americans against it and it cost him the midterms. Fix the ACA and then down the road you can transition into govt, run health care. Most people don't like change. You try to change everything you will get nothing. I'm on your side, but this is not the election to push it. This is probably the most important election in our lifetime. I will vote for whoever the Dems nominate and be happy to do it.

@avron When did you talk Obama? That must have been cool. What was he like?

@avron So your happier with Trump than Clinton? Are you fucking crazy? Are you guys Progressives or socialists? You must love Putin and Trump's relationship.

@Sticks48 Trump is enabled by the systems created by the U.S. government, by us as disengaged voters who vacate our responsibilities after we vote. We must hold all politicians accountable for their actions. Obama unleashed fracking, armed the police with military weapons, expanded the deadly drone program and killed countless civilians. Clinton was no better. Targeting Trump without recognizing it is the military-extraction-for-profit prison and healthcare systems that need to be dismantled is not just naive, but a death sentence for untold millions. Stop shaming people for working for the good of all.

@Bobbyzen You can't have the people on the street better armed than the police. He didn't kill countless civilians, and neither did Clinton. Clinton stopped an ethnic cleansing without putting boots on the ground. How many civilians would have died if he hadn't. Civilians always die in war. When have they not? All wars are stupid, but I see nothing in human history indicating war is going to go away. Humanity sucks and that will never change. When have we ever had a perfect President? NEVER! Of course we need to overhaul the health care system, but it is naive to think it can be done fast or simply. Medicare for all would be a start most people would get behind. Trump got into office because of disengaged voters. They were so disengaged they didn't vote.

@Sticks48 speak from a place of humanity and humility instead of aggression and cynicism. The world would be a better place if we all did that.

@Bobbyzen I am tired of you overly sincere folks dragging us down in defeat because you think somehow humanity is going to wake up turn the world into Disneyland. The Universe is a very hostile place and this sorry planet is part of that Universe. Peace and love would be wonderful, but it ain't going to happen. All you can do is deal with the real world and try to make it a little better any way you can, but the wholesale change of humanity is not going to happen.

@Sticks48 You are humanity. You’ve given up on yourself.

@Bobbyzen All that hippy trippy shit doesn't work for me. I have to function in the real world. the real world pretty much sucks and always has. All the the peace signs and cute sayings don't and never have changed anything and never will. I wish it was that simple. All I can do is treat the folks I deal with on a daily basis with kindness and empathy and vote to keep Republicans out of office.

@Sticks48 Democrats just voted to give Trump $4.5 billion unconditionally to expand ICE detention centers. Please stop giving a pass to Democrats. We have to hold them accountable. They are the only viable opposition to Republicans so if we don’t force them to be a meaningful opposition they won’t be.

@Bobbyzen That's why we vote. Replace the people you don't like. If the Progressives separate from the Democratic party they will be like the Green Party and the only thing they will do is hand elections to the Republicans.

republicans.

@Sticks48 Voting is not enough. We just elected a Democrat in Kansas’ 3rd Congressional District and she joined the majority to give Trump $4.5 billion to expand ICE camps. Hold them to accountable.

@Looking4-Others I'm glad you agree with me. I don't know why you people work so hard for the conservatives. When us Boomers die off this might become a more progressive country. Where you guys always fuck up is you want to much too fast and it scares the middle. If you can't get the middle you can't win. Concentrate on one or two big things like health care and college tuition. Most Americans want those things fixed. You won't get no tuition, but you could make it more affordable. You guys always want to dismantle everything and that scares the shit out of most people. You have to feed them a little bit at a time until they get used to it and see how it benefits them. Most Americans were not for the ACA until they had it for awhile and saw it was a good thing.

So bent on getting everything that they get nothing . This attitude will get US 4 more of this Orange Communist Turd .

@GEGR Exactly.

@avron You are living in a Fucking Dream World ( Dumbasses like you are going to guarantee 4 more years of this Orange Communist Turd ) . If this Country was really ready to change, it would have already . So.keep touting your My way or the Highway and see where it leads . Evidently people of your ilk have decided that it can be only one way . Compromise has Never entered into the equation .

@avron Fuck Your Ignorant Childish Ass . You are a Piss Ant wantabe and you will Never be . Democracy Requires Compromise, You have none YOU LOSE . Fuckbag like You ARE ALWAYS GOING TO LOSE .

@avron And You are a Metal Case . Good luck with your Ignorance and Pissing People off in your losing effort .

@avron HAHAHAHJAHAHAHA! You are funny! And I thought Progressives had no humor. You should take this act on the road.

@Sticks48 The whining about 2016 will never end . Sanders knew the deal going in . I love his agenda and support.90% of it .The problems come when dealing with the realities of 'Merica today they will Never Elect Sanders ( know what put this Orange Communist Turd in office, Bigoted Deep Seated Hatred and Racism ) Last time I checked Sanders is Jewish ) . You can wish one thing but guess what REALITY ALWAYS GETS IN THE WAY . I have been protesting and Voting for change since 1970 when Nixon was trying to send my Ass to Vietnam . It is slow but it comes ( I still can remember as a child separate Bathrooms, Water Fountains and Schools and in '69 our High School was integrated ) . We must protect our Democracy and this all or nothing approach of many progressives will give US 4 more years of this Communist Turd . Grow the Fuck Up and Stop Attacking People who have fought this battle for 67 Years ( I walked a Picket Line with my late Father when I was 3 Years Old ) . So get together Now or Suffer until 2024 .

@GEGR Sounds like my story. I remember separate bathrooms and water fountains. I remember a BBQ joint in 1971 in Elgin Tx where black people could only sit at a bar facing the wall. I haven't been to Elgin since.

@Sticks48 Some of these People act like we are encouraging the Madness that is going on . This did not start overnight and it will not end overnight . Be happy with the right change however slight it is .

@GEGR Exactly.