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Trotsky thought that certain so called left forces were acting the way they were and taking certain positions because they were in their infancy and their movement was immature. It was Lenin who pointed out and taught Trotsky that there's class forces behind every political party at play, this is what only the SEP/ICFI argues as we have learned the political lessons off these giants of the 20th century:
Perth Trotskyists
January 10, 2016 ·
The Three Sources and Three Component Parts of Marxism, Lenin 1913

"People always have been the foolish victims of deception and self-deception in politics, and they always will be until they have learnt to seek out the interests of some class or other behind all moral, religious, political and social phrases, declarations and promises. Champions of reforms and improvements will always be fooled by the defenders of the old order until they realise that every old institution, how ever barbarous and rotten it may appear to be, is kept going by the forces of certain ruling classes. And there is only one way of smashing the resistance of those classes, and that is to find, in the very society which surrounds us, the forces which can—and, owing to their social position, must—constitute the power capable of sweeping away the old and creating the new, and to enlighten and organise those forces for the struggle."

Ian-Duggan 7 Jan 16
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I get the impression from little bits I've read that Trotsky was more of an idealist while Lenin was more pragmatic. Everybody knows what happened next - execution after execution. And not confined at all to the rich and politically powerful. Lenin seems to be saying here that education will be the permanent solution to the working classes being oppressed. Me, I've lost faith in education. It was supposed to help us live peacefully together but it seems to be just a tool in the hands of the different political factions. For the moment, I think social democracy is the best of a bad lot.

brentan Level 8 Jan 16, 2020

Brentan the social democrats have moved so far to the right nothing separates them from right wing parties, the labour party in Ireland tried to charge us for water and took medical cards off down syndrome children, read the passage again this is what Lenin meant when he was talking about class forces behind politics. Social democrats are ruled by the ruling class and have been since they voted for war credits before ww1. Education is only fair and good in its entirety if it is for the benefit of all humanity and it is organized in an egalitarian and with understanding societal empathy, education for the greater good of humanity, hence education under socialism. Lenin and Trotsky were both Marxist materialists and in no way idealists.

@OwlInASack Why did they vote with their own governments to go to war instead of working on liberating the working class in ww1 then? and were you aware they used to be in the socialist international the 2nd international with Trotsky and Lenin who both opposed war?

@OwlInASack [] UK: Pro-Corbyn councillors sabotage fight against Labour’s social cleansing, and btw we've loads of articles on labour and everyone else calling themselves left

@Bobby9 I certainly would like education for all. I would like a liberal education in particular, where the best ideas from the past are used in the formation of the person. Instead, all I see is data intake and ideology.

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