29 17

There's no doubt in my mind that the Three-Fifths Compromise is still alive and well in the U.S.

"A 19-year-old white man accused of kicking a coat hanger up the rectum of a mentally disabled black teammate received no jail time at his sentencing on Friday."

[npr.org]

By ProudMerrie
Actions Follow Post Like

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

29 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

10

I can't read the article because it makes my blood boil just reading this part of it. WTF!!!

7

I'm beside myself. I almost didn't respond to this post due to the horrific, despicable act, which is sickening on multiple fronts.

TheAstroChuck Level 8 Mar 7, 2019
7

And white men are so abused. If the reverse had happened a black man would serve 15 years minimum.

freeofgod Level 7 Mar 7, 2019

If a black guy had done that to a mentally disabled white guy, I'd say that it would indeed have been judged to be both racial and sexual in nature, and the sentence would have probably been a lot worse than 15 years.

Not true. The reverse did happen, with a mentally handicapped white man. One defendant was an 18 year old black woman (correlates well with Howard). She was sentenced to probation and community service, exactly as Howard was sentenced.

Other defendants in the case were much older (up to 24). They received harsher sentences.... The worst was 8 years prison. Age of a defendant is very important in sentencing.

The only difference was the sexual assault situation... But in fairness, the defendants were convicted of hate crimes, so there's that.

It's important to draw conclusions from facts, rather than feelings.

@tkcoy It's also very important to see historical patterns.

@ProudMerrie sure.

Historically, humans used to live about 20 years.

Do we still live about 20 years.... Or has that condition changed?

Historically, black people have been enslaved in the US. Are they still slaves?

Prove it. Evidence, not rhetoric.

Edited

@tkcoy

@tkcoy

@DoctoralZombie Looks like spam to me. I sincerely hope the admins here don't allow trolls to spam the message boards with this kind of thing. We'll find out.

@tkcoy , apples and oranges smile003.gif

@freeofgod Not sure what you mean? Are you saying that a group of black people physically torturing a mentally handicapped white man is not similar to a group of white men physically torturing a mentally handicapped black man?

Please clarify. smile001.gif I would honestly love for someone to discuss this issue like an adult, instead of spamming, insulting, and cursing at anyone who doesn't agree.

@freeofgod I would also love to hear how this is different from that? Both are reprehensible crimes, Both assaulters got off with a slap on the wrist that is an insult to the victim. Im honestly baffled at the level of denial Im seeing on this topic.

6

I'm not usually a fan of mob justice, but someone grab the pitchforks and torches, this guy needs some vigilante justice, because apparently the courts are incapable.

CommonHuman Level 7 Mar 7, 2019
6

WTFF! How is that not a hate crime of sexual assault. What is wrong with our judicial system where it's against the law to sexual assault people but complete okay to let the rapers off the fucking hook.

mzbehavin Level 7 Mar 7, 2019

Nothing is wrong with our judicial system. It's all white.

See what I did there^^^^?

4

The assault was not racially motivated but it involved 2 people of different races. OK. Has this guy ever kicked a coat hanger up the ass of a white man? It's a yes or no question.

DenoPenno Level 8 Mar 8, 2019

Exactly.

so anything that happens between two people of different races is racially motivated? interesting logic there.. almost as though you think people are nothing but waling representations of their race... that seems pretty fucked up. somebody needs a trip to H.R.

@dellik For many of us to fully see your view we would have to know why such a violent man is in conflict with someone in the first place. He may just be a violent man but knowing of any other similar situations with anyone of any skin color might be a start. If he shows violence with other non-whites and none or very little with whites, this would be a good start at pointing to racism.

4

It’d be a damn shame if this dick weed were to... ya know... get in a little “accident” at some point and wind up with his head caved in.

webbew1 Level 7 Mar 7, 2019

And a coat hanger up his ass.

3

There is another lawsuit pending, hopefully they will see some justice then.

3

This is really disgusting. Disgusting behavior on the part of the shit Howard, disgusting result from the legal system. Sounds like they've got a bunch of other assholes on that team, too.

MST3K Level 8 Mar 8, 2019
3

OK. What the fucking fuck?? A clothes hanger shoved up somebody’s butt warrents no jail time for anybody? WHY did somebody put a hanger up this student’s butt? And kicking somebody is fucking ASSAULT, and even if he didn’t “aim” for the hanger when you KICK SOMEBODY WITH A HANGER IN BETWEEN HIS BUTTCHEEKS the hanger is going to go up his butt! Even the “official” reasoning doesn’t make any fucking sense!

The fact that this poor kid is mentally disabled is just the icing on the cake.

Closeted Level 8 Mar 8, 2019
3

This is a case where I believe that the punishment should equal the crime ten fold.

Bierbasstard Level 8 Mar 8, 2019
3

This reminds me of a nearly identical crime that happened in 2017.

Remember this? The 2017 Chicago torture incident? When 4 black defendants kidnapped and tortured a mentally handicapped white kid, on a freaking live stream, for days? Dude was partially scalped... Dude was beaten, dude was forced to drink from a toilet. One of the defendants was 18 years old at the time of the crime.

Brittany Covington plead guilty to the charges of committing a hate crime, intimidation and aggravated battery. Additional charges, such as kidnapping, were dropped as part of her plea deal. Covington was sentenced to four years of probation and 200 hours of community service. Cook County Circuit Judge William Hooks said that he could have sentenced her to prison, but did not because "I'm not sure if I did that you'd be coming out any better."

Compare to Howard, the 19 year old referenced in the OP... sentenced "to community service and probation".

Near-identical situations... Near identical outcomes.

But that doesn't matter to a racist, like the OP. A racist sees race as the answer to every question. A racist doesn't need to compare, doesn't need to understand, and doesn't need to investigate... because in the mind of a racist, the answer is always race.

I assert that the OP is a racist.

tkcoy Level 5 Mar 8, 2019

Perhaps you need to study more than two parallel crimes. And I'll be certain to tell my date this evening of your concerns about my racism. I'm quite certain his black ass will kick me to the curb.

@ProudMerrie perhaps you need to provide evidence of your claims. It's not my job to disprove your propaganda... We're not in a church.

It is sad that your date doesn't know you're fetishizing him/her due to racist ideation. Shame.

Either provide evidence that there is a trend of white men getting away with torturing handicapped black men... Or kindly stop spreading your racist dog whistles.

Edited for typos... The text editor in this app kind of sucks.

Edited

@ProudMerrie did you just pull out the 'im dating a black guy so I can't be racist' defense?
smdh. The sheer caucasity..

@dellik Why yes. Yes I did. And I see it had the desired effect.

@ProudMerrie ah... So the desired effect was tokenize a human being?

Cause that's not racist smile001.gif

@tkcoy I don’t think he’s been so well tokenized in his life. I’m such a good racist. Damned near as good as you.

@ProudMerrie lmfao. cognitive dissonance much? oly one being racist is you. the amount of projection iadded to the blatant denial is somewhat impressive though. disgusting, but impressive.

@dellik Oh I’m so ashamed of myself. The bridge over the Ohio calls...

3

This was horrible! Just horrible!

Freedompath Level 8 Mar 7, 2019
3

That's horrifying.

Stephanie99 Level 7 Mar 7, 2019
3

Hopefully this goes to appeal

Science-guy Level 8 Mar 7, 2019
3

People get away without punishment for their crimes sometimes(e.g. O.J. Simpson). The majority of people are white (in the US). majority of people getting away with things are white based on statistics. Theres no evidence that it's based on color. It's a "money/who you know get out jail pass" not a "white get out of jail free card".

Renickulous Level 7 Mar 7, 2019

You couldn't be more wrong. If you take into account the relative sizes of the white and black populations, you'll find that blacks are punished far more frequently and far more severely than are whites.

@Renickulous That's a steaming pile of bullshit right there pal.

Edited

@TheAstroChuck @proudmerrie are those black people in jail for made up reasons? Nope, white people arent rounding up blacks to throw jail, they commit crimes and go to jail. And the severity is because they are majority repeat offenders.

Edited

@ProudMerrie how?

@Renickulous You are over flowing with steaming crap and I'm quite sure you're unaware of that fact and you probably will never be able to understand proper statistics.

@Renickulous Why I'm surprised you didn't pull black on black crime out of your ass while you were at it. Should I give you a little more time?

@TheAstroChuck then show me a statistic that proves racism. your using %5 of all the data and spewing propaganda. The US is not racist, there are racists(in every place) but there are no laws that keep making black people commit more crimes per capita than whites (also a statistic you don't want to look at)

@ProudMerrie how is what I said "a steaming pile of bull shit"? I can speak for myself thanks

Edited

@Renickulous Feel free to speak for yourself all you want there sport, but you sure AF won't be speaking to me anymore because I'm blocking your ass...

Wow @renickulous you are so out of step with reality it boggles the mind. You are either a troll or willingly uneducated of the documented Inequalities in the US justice system. Person’s of colour receive significantly more jail time than whites. It is a real bias backed up by statistics. Please do some research.

@ProudMerrie Sound decision. He'll make you crazy if you let him.

@KKGator I don't bother reading his comments, it's enough reading what others say to him for me to know not to waste my time.

What! You are contradicting yourself when you say majority of people in the US are white, majority of people in the US are getting away with things based on statistics. So what colour are the people who do not get away with things then if not coloured?

I find it amazing that in a community of free-thinkers, atheists, agnostics, and skeptics.... The only responses you received were dogmatic, unquestioning, and emotional. Not one person actually presented a statistic to counter your assertion. That's sad, but let's teach them using real statistics.

You asserted that because a majority of people in the country are white, a majority of criminals will be white (true) and a majority of criminals who get away with it will be white (also probably true, but impossible to confirm).

[ucr.fbi.gov]

You'll see that according to the FBI, a majority of criminals are white. It then follows that all other categories of criminal (got-away-with-it, justice-served, or otherwise) will be white.

Your assessment is a basic logical step that is supported by FACTS and EVIDENCE. It is a shame that people in this community, of all places, are unwilling to accept basic logic.

Let's explore the issue further. Your opponents have asserted that:
1) If you take into account the relative sizes of the white and black populations, you'll find that blacks are punished far more frequently and far more severely than are whites.

2) Your words are excrement... And something about black-on-black crime?

Let's go ahead and just discount #2 immediately. That's not a logical argument. ProudMerrie used a purely emotional argument in an attempt to gas-light you and the audience. I've heard Christians say the exact same thing when I tell them that the earth is billions of years old. ProudMerrie; check your bias, check your dogma, and check your fallacies. While we're here, STOP putting words into dude's mouth, would you? That's just rude.

We can fact check the first assertion. Taking into account the relative sizes of the white and black populations, are black people punished more frequently than white people?

Short answer; YES.

Clarification; Correlation does not mean causation. Any free thinker, any skeptic, should know this simple truth. 100% of people who breathe oxygen die; does oxygen cause death?

As Renickulous pointed out, the reason why black people are punished more often than white people is because they commit crime more often than white people. TheAstroChuck clearly doesn't understand statistics, and the ironically named Science-guy clearly needs to do some research. But for those of you who have remained willfully ignorant for the sake of your dogmatic psuedo-religion of Social Justice, here's a review of this very question performed by an organization that tried, and failed, to disprove this clearly observable fact.

[channel4.com]

Now to the second part... Are black people punished more severely than white people?

Short answer, again, is yes. A 20% difference in sentencing duration exists between black and white people. Unfortunately, again, this is simply not the full story. In this case, black defendants are more likely to have multiple convictions, are more likely to commit more severe crimes, and are more likely to be poor than white defendants.

It's very difficult to find studies that show their work, and compare all of these things. While not national, this study from California about indigent defendants documents that black indigent defendants perform more severe crimes (50% more severe) than white defendants... They have twice as many previous arrests... And they receive twice as much prison time. This suggests that recidivism, not race, is the primary determining factor.

[law.upenn.edu]

It is my conclusion based on years of novice research that the differences in criminal sentencing outcomes between black and white populations within the US are due to the crime rates and recidivism rates amongst the two communities. The links above are a small sample of the available data.

This is often contradicted by the narrative of the popular media, but in my experience their narrative is flawed and maliciously misleading. For example, in the US Sentencing Commission reports on this subject, they control for previous VIOLENCE, but do not control for previous CONVICTIONS, or for the defendant's demeanor, or for the defendant's wealth.

So... Based on statistics, Renickulous has a solid case... ProudMerrie is a dogmatic ideologue... TheAstroChuck is incapable of (or unwilling to) critically assessing data... Science-guy is ill-informed, and should refrain from providing opinions from ignorance... and Jolanta is just practicing whataboutism.

I know that SJWs would rather block me than try to argue using facts and logic... but if any REASONABLE person decides to take up this argument, please be sure that your sources cross-reference the following against the racial disparities.

  • Previous convictions and arrests
  • Severity of the crime
  • Wealth of the defendant

I am open to hearing opposing viewpoints, as long as your argument is supported by FACTS AND EVIDENCE, as opposed to FEELINGS AND DOGMA.

@tkcoy I use statistics all the time and when I was an active scientist routinely published statistical analysis in refereed journals. What you've just presented is a very poor and biased skewed "statistical" analysis. You have cherry picked the information and some of your sources are highly questionable. Your long-winded comment has no merit.

@TheAstroChuck I have replied to an internet discussion. I am not a professional statistician.

You are? Maybe you'd like to provide valid evidence to support your claim.

Otherwise, it's just dogma. smile001.gif I respond to evidence... Not a passionate claim that evidence exists.

Long winded... Sure. Some sources questionable? Lol prove it. Cherry picked? Prove it.

Your emotional response has neither merit nor sources. Lol

Edited

@TheAstroChuck it's also quite telling that you criticized the length of my reply...

If you were a good scientist... Then you know damned well that complex subjects can't be assessed in a single paragraph.

Maybe you'd like to prove your point in a single paragraph. smile007.gif surely, a pro like you can summarize decades of research and provide sources in a more concise manner than a peasant like me!

Edited for typos... Text editor really sucks.

Edited

@tkcoy Yes, I was a professional statistician in the sense that much of my professional research consisted of performing sophisticated statistical analyses and publishing those results. I'm not a professional statistician in the sense that it was in my job title.

Re: Your statistical analysis and your demand for proof.
All of the statistical analysis that I've seen from reliable sources indicates there is significant racial injustice in our legal system. You make no mention or no rebuttal for the reasons for the discrepancies between those conclusions and yours. It's actually your responsibility to investigate the topic more widely and then prove the reasons mainstream research has gotten it wrong. The burden of proof/no proof is yours in this case - not mine.

I've written a three part post on "What Constitutes Proof? Part 3: Rejection Criteria". You have not met the high standards of evidence.

@TheAstroChuck lol Your 3 part post says absolutely nothing. Part 1 is simply an explanation of deductive vs inference reasoning.... Part 2 is literally just you stating an opinion that providing evidence is difficult.... And part 3 is more drivel. I'm not impressed, but let's take the 3rd part and assess my arguments.

"A proof that two concepts are not causally linked can be rather easy in many cases. If an individual simply gives a couple of counter examples, then the original claim of causation is weakened."

Yup. I easily showed a counter-example (Chicago torture incident)... The original claim of causation was thoroughly weakened. Do you disagree?

"If the advocate against the causally linked concepts can’t identify a counter example, his/her challenge is much tougher but not impossible. The AA (against advocate) might start by pointing out critical factors that are missing from the original conclusions that led to the presumed connection. S/he might point out logical inconsistencies internal to the original arguements."

I was able to identify a counter example... AND I pointed out critical factors that were missing from the original conclusions. Do you disagree?

Now let's move on to how you've behaved. You linked a list of "cheats".

Bullshit: Talk at length about nothing. That is exactly what your 3 part post is; talking at length about nothing. It has nothing to do with this discussion.

Causes: Assume that an event that follows another event was caused by it. And I quote: "If you take into account the relative sizes of the white and black populations, you'll find that blacks are punished far more frequently and far more severely than are whites." You presumed, with absolutely no evidence, that these two things were causally linked simply because the two things are correlated.

So... I've provided evidence, I've pointed out the inconsistency of the original claim, and I've provided a counter example.

What have you done? lol You've appealed to authority, you've insulted the people with whom you were debating, you've dismissed arguments out of hand while appealing to "common knowledge" that is the very thing being debated, and you've continued to make claims that evidence exists without ever actually providing evidence.

You're sounding less like a scientist and more like a creationist.

@TheAstroChuck While we're discussing this, I wanna just shut down your appeals to common belief.

At one time it was common knowledge that the earth was flat. At that time, people cited the common belief that the earth was flat as evidence that the earth was flat.

At one time it was common knowledge that Africans weren't human. People cited the common belief that Africans weren't human as evidence that Africans weren't human.

Now, you're claiming that statistics prove systemic racism. You're citing the common belief that statistics prove systemic racism as evidence that statistics prove systemic racism.

Do you see why your arguments are without merit?

Show me the evidence of YOUR claim, as I have shown supporting evidence for my COUNTER-CLAIM, or be an adult and admit that you cannot prove your claim.

@tkcoy While it's true that common belief once held the Earth was flat, many literate people knew that was not the case. In fact, the sphericalness of the Earth was known and even measured by ancient Greeks. Moreover, modern science based on measurement never mistook the Earth being flat. I don't deal in common belief, I only work with measurable observations, especially from reliable sources. In contrast, you don't seem to make any distinction between high-quality research and some uninformed blogger who often makes stuff up. You seem to be using what Kelly Ann Conway calls alternative facts, which are facts pull out of someone's buttocks to support indefensible claims. The point of the three-part What Constitutes Proof is to demonstrate (in the abstract) just what you're trying to do here on this thread: reference some unsubstantiated claim on the internet, take it as factual, and then demand counter evidence. This is called observational bias and people who have strong tendencies toward observational bias are generally unable to sort fact from fiction or unable to perform abstract reasoning. They also tend to exhibit belligerence and hubris, thinking reading a couple of blogs makes them experts. Well I tire of your nonsense and your illogic thoughts. There is no amount of legitimate evidence or reasoning that will get through your thick skull. I therefore will not continue with this thread.

@TheAstroChuck lol I didn't cite any blogs? Let's see... FBI... a news agency (that cited multiple reliable sources within the article)... a university study...

Care to back that bald-faced lie up with facts?

lol also, you broke your own rules with an argument cheat; see "Bullshitting".

You claim to work in measurable observations... I've provided measurable observations. Where are yours? smile007.gif

Your dogmatic opinions are impressive, for an atheist. Not one fact. And while I showed supporting evidence that the mainstream media is wrong, you think it doesn't matter unless I can prove WHY they're wrong... You want me to speculate on their motivations, after having shown that their assessment may be factually incorrect? lol That's just hilarious, but also dishonest and hypocritical.

Edited for clarity.

Edited

@TheAstroChuck lol One last thing; how much work did you do with social science as an astrophysicist?

smile007.gif Where'd your opinions come from? I could guess... some blogs, and Vox.com. lol

@tkcoy

@tkcoy

@tkcoy

@tkcoy

@DoctoralZombie Thanks for providing a link! Did you read the document?

"What might appear at first to be a linkage between race and crime is in large part a function of concentrated urban poverty, which is far more common for African Americans than for other racial groups. This accounts for a substantial portion of African Americans’ increased likelihood of committing certain violent and property crimes."

What this is literally saying is that because of geographic distribution of African American populations, they are more likely to commit violent crime and property crime.

"One reason minorities are stopped disproportionately is because police see violations where they are,” said Louis Dekmar, the president of the International Association of Chiefs of Police, and chief of LaGrange, Georgia’s police department.14) The chief added: “Crime is often significantly higher in minority neighborhoods than elsewhere. And that is where we allocate our resources.” Dekmar’s view is not uncommon."

This literally means that because African American communities have higher crime rates, they have more policing, and more policing means more crimes witnessed, and more crimes witnessed means more arrests. Again, that's kindof what I said, and what the other guy said, isn't it? smile001.gif

"More than one in four people arrested for drug law violations in 2015 was black, although drug use rates do not differ substantially by race and ethnicity and drug users generally purchase drugs from people of the same race or ethnicity.15) For example, the ACLU found that blacks were 3.7 times more likely to be arrested for marijuana possession than whites in 2010, even though their rate of marijuana usage was comparable.16)"

Review source 16, you find that they reference an ACLU report... That itself references a survey by SAMHSA, which asks users to self-report their Marijuana usage. Note that this doesn't differentiate the actual methods of marijuana usage... I can say from experience (anecdotal, of course, I don't think there's been a study that addresses this) that I've seen a marked cultural difference between black and white Americans, specifically that whites smoke indoors... blacks smoke wherever, and openly speak to strangers about acquiring drugs. I've been asked by multiple black strangers if I had drugs or would get drugs for them... Randomly, in public. I've only seen whites performing this behavior in dense urban areas, and still far less often. It'd be interesting to see a real study done on this.

The rest of the Report to the UN reads basically the same. They use flawed data, flawed logic, and assumptions. Their primary evidence is always that more blacks are imprisoned than whites... This does not establish a causal relationship.

Nice job, though. I applaud you for googling the document, but I do wish you'd read the document and critically assessed its contents. It gets tiring pointing out, over and over again, that the TITLE of a document does not define the CONTENTS of a document.

@TheAstroChuck Lmao, yeah, because it couldnt be that the problem is a wealth baised caste system. funny how poverty levels line up pretty neatly with incarceration rates. the vast majorty of those incarcerated are at or below the poverty line. because if you have money, you almost never do time. but sure, keep falling for the obvious race baiting. its kind of funny, in a sad sort of way.

@dellik I'm pleased that I could make you laugh; I always enjoy making people laugh. I'm particularly amused when individuals show up late to an intellectual fight and then come unarmed. It particularly makes me smile when those individuals walk away thinking they have somehow bested me.

3

Unbelievable

darthfaja Level 7 Mar 7, 2019
3

What.
The.
Fuck.

Gooniesnvrdie Level 7 Mar 7, 2019

And they wonder why BLM exists...

2

Sickening.

2

Sounds to me like he needs his ass beat severely. I'll take the job and can provide references if needed.

motrubl4u Level 7 Mar 8, 2019
2

I'd like to know more about the so called judge.

godef Level 7 Mar 8, 2019

So-called is right.

2

Disgusting. Is there a photo of that white man, so we could send it around the world and punish him that way?

Jolanta Level 8 Mar 8, 2019

There’s one in the link.

2

WTF?!

Paracosm Level 7 Mar 7, 2019
2

WTF?

freeofgod Level 7 Mar 7, 2019
1

Not sure if it counts for anything in this case, but "accused" and "guilty" are two different things.
I'd love to believe the article, but every time I look into these types of stories I always find out it's been either exaggerated or outright fabricated. I'm afraid these days you can't really trust any single news outlet.

kasmian Level 7 Mar 9, 2019

You are right about not trusting the news media.

Write Comment
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content read full disclaimer
  • Agnostic.com is the largest non-profit community for atheists, agnostics, humanists, freethinkers, skeptics and others happy without religion!