Agnostic.com

13 11

A question for strong supporters of the state of Israel.
What attracted you to an agnostic site when you support a theist state?
If you dispute it is a theist state, the Jewish state, then please explain to me why Israeli's insist that Jerusalem be the capital? What justification is used ie who "promised" them this land, this city as a capital?

powder 8 Mar 19

Post a comment Reply Add Photo

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

13 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

0

Israel state is not theocratic, but religion is a major power there as in most of countries.
The state of Israel is aggressive expansionist.
But they do it slowly over decades, so no big scandal happens. And if the local population that cannot have a state reacts, it is terrorism.
Now ask me, how a population that can't have a state (because veto) can formally react against a state that simply says that a land outside its borders is theirs now?

1

Being a German, it is my moral duty to support Israel, because without the Holocaust there would be no Israel. The existence of a Jewish state is intimately linked to our German history.
That does not mean that we should never criticize Israelian politics.
BTW Israel is not a theocracy, but a liberal democracy, with a lot of privileges given to the religious. But it is not our business to comment on that

Not quite true re democracy and non theology. It is known as the Jewish state. If you criticise the liberal democracy that is Israel, then why are you labled antisemitic? That should only happen if Israel was a theology.
Judaism is an ideology
Jews are followers of Judaism.
But
Jewish people consider themselves a people, a race.
So you may also be a Jew without following Judaism.
I understand many Jewish people do not support Israeli policy in many areas. But do defend the ideal of Israel and so justify their actions, defending Israel and making excuses. Yet they do not follow Judaism? It's this mindset I'm trying to understand

0

A hard hitting critique of Zionism and why there is unlikely ever to be peace in Israel

1

Are you a supporter of terrorism? Not saying you are. Just answer the question.

That depends on your definition of terrorist. Mine is someone or a group that terrorises people or a population of people. And no, I do not support that.
The olde adage "one man's terrorist is another mans freedom fighter" rings very true a lot of the time. Nelson Mendela the classic example.
Today's definition is so loose it may be applied to any fringe group.

But in the end, terrorists are those that terrorise a population.

@powder So muslims are freedom fighters?

@Storm1752 Muslims are followers of Islam. People.
Perhaps you refer to those people and groups who justify their actions with their ideological doctrine, Islam. If they terrorise a population, yes. If they only target military assets and don't threaten or cause terror amongst the general population, then no. They are no doubt misguided but don't use terror as a weapon.
daesh for sure are terrorist.
Anyone who terrorizes a population. That cause a population to live in fear by targeting civilian infrastructure.
Some nation states have been known to do this, especially theist ones.
To answer your question, for sure many Muslims cheer on Islamic terrorists as freedom fighters but many do not. The same can be said for terrorists acts done in the names of Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, Buddhism etc etc. Many cheer them on as freedom fighters but then again, many more do not.

@powder But it's okay for them to make war on military infrastructures? Israel"s? Then they want to conquer Israel, dismantle it, and turn it into an Islamic state? And that's okay?

@Storm1752 war does have rules which have been discarded, especially by the US who use white phos in civilian areas for example. Any fighting force that fight for their god should not be supported by any. F'n "moderates" my arse.
Israel do assassinate scientists and sabotage infrastructure without declaring a war. Famously forged an Australian passport for a Mossad assassin a few years back and got caught out. This I do not support, as it is state sponsored murder and sabotage. Just as bad as terrorism.
A pity Israel could not be like Syria was, a secular state where minorities could live in peace. Most xtians who fled the terror of Iraq ended up in Syria where they found sanctuary. How many refugees have theists states accepted? Saudi Arabia, UAE, Israel, Vatican, Iran etc?

@powder I don't know. All good points. I'm tired of talking about it and I've been painting all day. Just glad I'm not in the middle of it.

@Storm1752 aren't we all

2

I am with OAC,,,why can't this be a question open to discussion?...

0

I just want to stay out of it. Why do Americans have to have an opinion?

1

Give it back to the Palestinians if you cannot live in peace with the people who have been there for yonks.

That"s an ignorant answer. You know that"s not going to happen.

@Storm1752 really ignorant. Who knows what is going to happen. Nobody thought that Donald would win either.

I'm sorry for calling your answer 'ignorant.' By doing so I was indirectly calling YOU ignorant, and no one deserves to be unduly insulted. I am just so frustrated at some people's attitudes toward Israel, which is basically, if you strip away much of the verbiage, Israel does NOT have a right to exist, that their creation in 1948 was a travesty. Well then, just say so. According to them, they should just pack up and leave. And I will agree it was unfortunate. Like many of the arbitrary borders created by the colonialist as the dismantled their empires, it caused more harm than good. The Palestinians were displaced and their neighbors refused to assimilate them, choosing instead to house them in permanent refugee camps. That also was a travesty, but perhaps an understandable one. It should be clear by now most Muslims will never accept the existence of the Jewish state. If it takes 100 years, or a thousand, they will defeat them. Hey, they still have designs on, say Spain, which was Muslim for hundreds of years. Islam NEVER accepts defeat. A conquered territory is always considered sacred ground. It's an attitude enshrined in the Koran. It's ridiculous, but all religion is ridiculous, and as we know is used by "pious" men to cause much bloodshed and grief. The Christian's destroyed the civilizations of North and South America and elsewhere. They REALLY wanted the land and its treasure, but insisted in part it was to "save" the indigenous peoples. Talk about hypocrisy!
Israel, however, is different in this sense: it is not just a distinct culture, a "people," it is also a religion. Because the New Testament, probably authored by Roman's to destroy them because their instransgience to their rule, blamed them for the death of "Christ" (who never existed), after they brutally massacred many of them and dispersed them, replacing them with a Rome-friendly fiction. This has resulted in their persecution throughout the centuries in the Christian world, culminating in the Holocaust. Ironically, Hitler may have actually done them a "favor" by once and for all making it clear they'd never be accepted in "Christ-"obsessed Christendom. Should have then moved them to some unoccupied land somewhere (if such a land existed)? Well, yes, maybe, It's debatable. It would've spared the world the present conflict. But the Jews themselves wouldn't have been too happy about it!
But they didn't. They shipped them back to the Middle East, and there remain, a successful, vibrant liberal democracy right dab in the middle of Allah Country! Great. Just great. Now what? THEY ain't going nowhere! But the Arabs say, oh yes they are! You can just forget the "peace process;" it's a joke and always been. An indestructible Scorpion in a glass box with an invincible Mongoose, forever circling, forever poised to strike. What to do? Well, da*n good question, but Israel knows the "right to return" is stealth surrender. Never going to happen. Islam knows this, and will never stop insisting. The U.S., under the delusion "Christ" is coming back any day now, props them up with quasi-religious fervor. Islam, convinced the final Caliphate is right around the corner, "knowing" Palestine is THEIR land and have to have it back before their war against the rest if the world's other gods and religions can re-commence, will never rest until the Jews are gone. Meantime, the Palestinians sit there stranded, never to return home, never to be adopted. The truth of the matter is, they're screwed. The ONLY viable answer, as simple as it is impossible, is for the world be become agnostic and realize it has all been a bad dream. Sorry. Wish there was a way short of that to get them all singing 'Kumbaya,' but there isn't a "final solution," and never has been.

5

I believe in Israel's right to exist -- but only as a truly democratic state, with no ethnic group treated as second class citizens. That is is a proble with a state which mixes politics and religion. Also, I do NOT support Netanyahu, as he is an arrogan thug and boor.

The Arab states are democracies?

I think we all do.

@Storm1752 good point. Israel is an Arab state.

@Storm1752 I did not say that. I do not approve of the theocratic control of their countries either, but I also do not deny their right to exist either.

@powder Israel is NOT an Arab state.

@powder, @wordywalt But you deny Israel THEIR right to exist?

@Storm1752 You evidently read selectively to fit your attack. The first thing I said on this post was that I believe in Israel's right to exist.

7

In fact the land was only ever promised for 50 years. They've had it. I am deeply fascinated by the fact that humans created this small stretch of land to be more holy and special than all others. It is from a psychological and anthropological point of view utterly amazing. However we need to grow the f up. It's a hot bit of desert. God isn't coming back...no God was ever there. Once the ppl of the book finally get that we can start to live in peace

Nah. Even if humanity could remove all religion as something to fight over, we'd find something else to replace it.
We're assholes that way.

2

I am not a strong supporter of the Israeli state and am interested in any supporter responding to your question. I do think though that for America and Israel their state religions long ago stopped having much do to with the religion itself as anything but a convenient tool in the need to control certain segments of the population towards nationalistic goals. If say large portions of the Christian Church(s) in America started moving as institutions towards the democratic party and supporting socialist and more inclusive programs the republicans and mainstream democrats would I think find reasons to oppose them. The same in Israel in that their religion is a tool for Netanyahu and hard line Israelis to bolster their Nationalistic agenda. What would they do if the Rabbis and such suddenly came out strongly and publicly against their hate? Likely ally with more extreme "friendly" elements and seek to destroy the "heretics".

Quarm Level 6 Mar 19, 2019

You mean if Republicana turned into Democrats Democrats would still oppose them? What?

11

Judaism is a religion. Practitioners of judaism are called "jews".
Israel calls itself a "jewish" state, ergo, it is a theocracy.
Israel spends an awful lot of money buying influence and favor in the US.
Israel has an abysmal human rights record.

Personally, I don't think the US ought to be kowtowing to ANY country that is a theocracy. OR a dictatorship.

I honestly don't give a shit if anyone calls me "anti-semitic". I'm against ALL religion, so it would make sense that I would be.
There is an appalling level of hypocrisy among those who lose their shit over
anti-semitism, but have no issue with anti-muslim rhetoric.
That includes both republicans and democrats.
I'm an anti-theist. I think ALL religion is evil and should not be permitted to
have ANY influence on public policy.
If that makes me an "enemy of Israel", I'm okay with that.
At least I'm not a hypocrite about it.

Oh and Muslim countries don't have abysmal human rights records? Do you even know what you"re saying?

Arab states aren't theocracies and dictatorships?

@Storm1752 You have a serious reading comprehension problem if you have to ask those questions. @KKGator Was pretty clear.

@indirect76 Explain his "clear explanation. Maybe is a radicalized democracy which MUST be ideologically-driven because they are being attacked by theocratic dictatorships which want to wipe it off the face of the earth? Maybe Jewish citizens elect bellicose leaders because it is necessary to their survival?

@Storm1752 My friend, please reread her comment and tell me what you think her stance would be on the theocratic dictatorships attacking Israel.

@indirect76 I'm just telling you my point of view. Israel is a liberal democracy. There"s a huge difference between that and an Israeli theocracy. It is not a theocracy. Liked would be voted out tomorrow if suddenly the threat to Israel vanished.

@indirect76 Likud

@Storm1752 I don’t know who or what Likud is and I don’t see how any of what you said is a response to what I asked. It might be a language barrier thing. I don’t know, but I wish you the best in your endeavors.

@indirect76 And I wish you the very best as well. I especially hope you never find yourself in, say, Iran, where they would surely have their way with you, my friend.

@Storm1752 Cool your jets, don't come at me with your bullshit.
The topic was Israel, and that was what I addressed. I will, generally, try to stick to the topic at hand.
I'm not fan of ANY theocracy, and generally most of the countries in that region are theocracies, regardless of what they call themselves, and they ALL have abysmal human rights records.
Don't you dare try to make it seem like I was defending ANY of them, because I most definitely was NOT.
I have NO use for ANY religion. I have no use for any government that operates under any religion.

Do not conflate my comments to mean ANYTHING but what I specifically said.

As far as the US goes, since this is where I live, I fight against the influence of ANY religion (in this case, it's primarily christianity) on public policy.

You can shove your righteous indignation right up your ass if you're going to twist anyone's comments (especially mine) to suit your own agenda.

@Shouldbefishing
Not for nothing, but the semantics of this do not concern me.

However, just as a point, once someone says they are an atheist, they are no longer a jew, a christian, a muslim, or any other damned thing.
As soon as someone determines that they are an atheist, they cease wearing ANY religious label. If someone else attempts to put a label on me, or anyone else, I have every right to tell them they are full of shit.

As far as that entire region goes, if they're ruled by religious laws, they are a theocracy.
I'm against all religions and all theocracies.
I am an anti-theist.
If that makes me an anti-semite, again, not really giving a shit.

One last few things: 1) Israel is NOT a theocracy, it is a democracy which has to do certain things to survive, like restrict it's voting population. If it didn't, it would cease to exist, 2) You said you were "anti-Israel." Okay. That's a legitimate position. You don't have to be an Islamic terrorist to feel that way. I would have rather they were never born into existence. Would have saved the world a lot of grief. BUT THEY WERE, AND HERE THEY ARE. And, they are not going anywhere. You, I, and everybody else has to deal with that fact. And since they ARE here, I support their right to exist. Hey, all countries were formed somehow. Look back a thousand years, or two, or three, and see how different national borders were back then. National boundaries change over time. Who knows what they will look like a thousand years from now? So, in the end, does it really matter? 50 years from now we will both be dead. Will it matter to us then, this bullshit problem these bullshit religions are having with one another? I don't follow the news. This territorial and religious dispute has absolutely nothing to do with me. I have an opinion which doesn't matter even to me. So if you want me to shove it up my ass, I will do so gladly. Have a nice day.

9

they're making a list
and they're checking it twice
and if you criticize israel
you're an anti-semite
yahweh is coming to town

"yahweh is coming to town" thank you thank you thank you

making a list..anyone else old enough to remember 'santa is coming to town'.

Are you anti-Muslim as well?

@Storm1752 ,
what do you mean as well?

1

looks like there might not be many such supporters... which isn't surprising here.

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:313967
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.