It seems atheists DOMINATE this site, despite the fact it's an agnostic one. There's a BIG difference between the two, but it's always being obscured by people who want to insinuate themselves into agnostic discussions and poison them with negativity and pessimism, all the while claiming to be "agnostic atheists." NONSENSE. They say religion is false. Likely, beyond reasonable doubt, no dispute, but how do they KNOW? They say death is The End. Really? Did a burning bush tell you that? They say the deeds of bad people go unpunished. Regrettably that may be the case; then again, maybe not. But not according to them. To them, atheism IS a religion; they make their statements with such absolutist finality they sound exactly like the people they criticize.
That's okay, I say, like the theists they have every right to their opinion. Somewhere. What strikes me oftentimes the similarity between death as The End, and death as the gateway to hell. SOME atheists aren't that down on it, saying it's okay if we just disappear. SOME are pretty bummed about it. But they all agree it's a FACT. Who says?
Atheists are SO sure they malign those who point out they may be overreacting to their oppressive, rigid, doctrinaire past, or simply substituting their own ideology for that one.
The great thing about agnosticism, which seems to have escaped them, is ANYTHING is possible. Think about that for a minute, while I add qualifiers. Except for those things which can be ruled out as being physically impossible (miracles), for instance, there are potentially whole "dimensions," spectrums outside the range of our five senses. We can't prove they exist, but we can't prove they don't either. There are phenomenon like telepathy, extrasensory perception, and psychic abilities which have been circumstantially shown to be not only possible, but very hard to deny. Reincarnation? Hundreds, maybe THOUSANDS of books have documented people with verifiable memories, specific, factual memories, of things they could not POSSIBLY have knowledge (and no coaching). Crop circles can't be dismissed as two men with strings and shovels in a field. Aliens can't be automatically ruled out. There is SO MUCH we do not know, no belief in "God" necessary. Much of what I'm talking about, wide swaths of it even, might be bullsh*t, unjustified mutterings by looney tunes dreamers or charlatans, but ALL of it? Despite what some atheists say, that's just ridiculous. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you can lump it in with purely faith-based hokum and dismiss it out of hand. To say ANYTHING is absolutely, positively the truth is to replace one " belief system " with another "belief system," just changing the words.
There ARE, to be sure, areas of agreement between agnostics and atheists. They agree there a 99.9999...% certainty there is no such thing as heaven and hell, for instance. No chance a supernatural entity dreamed up the chaotic madness on this planet. The list goes on and on.
But just because we can rule out some things does NOT mean we can ignore good indications some things are worthy of consideration, without being castigated as someone who hasn't "let go" of superstitious religiosity. Some of these atheists, in fact, sound like Old Testament prophets in reverse! No, God isn't going to smite you, but something will, then you die and begone with you! You're nothing! An insignificant speck on the arse of the universe! Well, maybe. Certainly plausible. But then again, maybe not. Believing many things are worth mulling over, investigating, talking about, doesn't mean they're true, but it doesn't mean they're false, either.
I hope our atheist friends don't bring down their righteous wrath on me for speaking so forthrightly, but I'm fed up with their orthodoxy. I have NO hope this will be the case, but it is my fervent longing that henceforth they make clear the things they say are their OPINION, when appropriate, and not fact. That they pause and reflect before they say the same unverifiable, unknowable, unsubstantiated things of which they accuse our enemies, who are legion.
I don't mind at all if you're a nihilist, say; certainly an understandable point of view. But to say life is DEFINITELY meaningless is stretching it, don't you admit? Aren't you contracting and narrowing your mind, closing it off just a hair, perhaps, if you aver CATEGORICALLY extraterrestials didn't mess with our DNA, creating humans out of primordial men? Just sayin'...
Anyway, I feel better now...if anybody thinks I'm talking specifically about them, I assure you, insist vehemently, I am not! I'm talking in vague generalities about no one in particular. This is just an impression plucked out of the air and offered humbly as a possible topic for discussion.
Lol. I feel you. The constant atheist attacks on an agnostic point of view is ridiculous.
I solved this problem, at least in my own mind, by rejecting the term "atheist" altogether. We do not need a special word to cover one small aspect of disbelief any more than we need special words to describe those who do not believe in Santa Claus or the Tooth Fairy. We all have a list of beliefs driven by evidence, hearsay, or necessity that we use to function in life. If something fails in meeting the criteria, it doesn't get on the list. Someone who is experienced, discriminating, bright, and critical would not likely put god on that list. No need to use any other adjectives to describe that someone.
I have been an atheist for 42 years, not an agnostic for what its worth. One thing I do not do is debate my atheism or my reason for it. Nor do I impose my atheism on anyone, politics yes, atheism no. Lol. I know what I know, I know what I believe, but have no inclination to convince anyone else to my way of thinking.
In Science and mathematics we do know and recognize that there are absolutes.
Great post - thanks for sharing. It's interesting reading all these reactions.
There are almost as many definitions of agnosticism and atheism as there are people. Because of such diversity of opinion, (to me) it's best to preface any post like this with your own terms and definitions just avoid confusion. If anyone disagrees with you, that's another thread. And any strident argument about what these two terms mean is a fool's errand, as it's known that dictionaries describe more of a word's common usage as opposed to its actual real meaning... for the most part. (to paraphrase Matt Dillahunty).
When I enter into such discussions, to keep terms clear, I'll sometimes pull out Richard Dawkin's scale, which I tweaked and modified. See here: [niceguyjim.com]
Oh - and not to harp on it, but I like paragraphs too.
Cheers bud.
I like Jordan Peterson on this subject. When people ask him if he believes in god he responds by asking “what do you mean by ‘believe’ and what do you mean by ‘god’?”
I was going to read that and look for keywords and phrases like "but to be fair..." Or "bringing balance" or even some references to Heidegger or some s hit like that. But my eyes glazed over way too fast. So here's my totally one sided, judgemental af, single solitary thought line. You can't prove that A leads to B, but notB leads to notA. However you can't disprove it either. So yeah, two possibilities exist. But only one can be right. I've made up my mind, and there's not much to talk about. I'm fairly certain there are more people like me.
Not as much difference as you might think but we always beat that same old dead horse again and again. Atheist or agnostic we would all believe in gods if there was sufficient evidence. So far evidence has never been found.
Agnostic and atheist are word plays of a sort. I am an agnostic atheist.
I am glad you are feeling better. I've engaged in this particular "discussion" of "but how do you KNOW" a little too many times. We would have to delve into the nature of knowledge and the meaning of knowledge. We don't have the same frame of reference.
But ultimately, it doesn't matter to me whether you are agnostic or atheist. As long as you behave in the way that does not harm others. So.... knock yourself out. Be agnostic. I hope you return the same favor to me.
You do realize that the statistical probability of life in the universe is high enough, that nearly all of us atheists are by definition agnostic!?
Debate any damned thing you like. It's your time to spend doing whatever the
hell you please.
I'm an atheist. I was born an atheist, just like everyone else is born an atheist.
Everything, and anything, else has to be taught.
Or, more to the point, indoctrinated.
I do not feel the need to debate these facts.
I've always thought agnostics were/are pussies who can't commit.
You either believe, or you do not. Anything else is just hedging and vacillation.
Another issue I do not feel the need to debate.