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I keep wondering what you people who call yourselves "agnostics" on here claim to be agnostic about. You say "The existence of God". What's "God"? I just see 3 three alphabet letters there. Elsewhere I've seen where people have written that row of letters and said it means the row of words "creator of the universe". But for the life of me, I can't think of anything that any of those rows of alphabet letters or words refer to for you guys to be agnostic about. Please fill me in. I can't claim to be either a theist, an atheist, or an agnostic. The fact is that the sounds "God" or "creator of the universe" rings no more of a bell in my head than the sound "Zoz" rings in my head -- other than the fact I've observed that the sound "God" seems to trigger certain emotions and behavior in people who call themselves "theists", whereas the sound "Zoz" does not seem to do that to them.

By EdwinMcCravy5
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28 comments

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10

I can't understand what your saying. It's all just rows of letters.

5

If you really want to know and not just being antagonistic, you can review hundreds of previous posts from hundreds of posters and you will understand where many of the contributors are coming from.

If you are being antagonistic please post something more erudite with substance so that an intelligent conversation can be engaged in.

Most of us here are more interested in considered discourse to develop understanding on subjects we are not so well informed in, not point scoring or knockabout Laurel and Hardy style argument.

The God/Not God debate is s but tired and pointless in a ‘live’ situation. Please contribute more meaningfully.

I'm not joking. I really and truly am unable to have a thought or mental concept of anything that I am able to believe that Christians, Jews and Muslims mean by their rows of letters "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" respectively. Why do you think I'm joking or trolling? I don't get it. Why don't you just describe for me how you go about having whatever mental concept you have, so I'll know what you are talking about? Or are you only talking about rows of letters and how they trigger behavior in Christians, Jews and Muslims?

@EdwinMcCravy Okay. Perhaps the solution might be to contact the lead body of each of the Abrahamic religions and ask for their meaning of the G-O-D word. I am sure they would be most helpful.

@Geoffrey51 If you have a mental concept of God, why didn't you describe it for me yourself, instead of telling me to go ask somebody else. Or are you saying you're like me and have no mental concept of anything God could be either?

@EdwinMcCravy I’ve never considered it so I have no mental conception of it as I have no interest in it. I am about as useful to you in this regard as the proverbial chocolate fire guard which is why I suggest you ask of someone who would have some idea of what to tell you. As Bob Dylan said “It Ain’t Me, Babe”

5

I keep wondering what it matters to you?

Agnostics matter to me. YOU matter to me! I want to know what you believe about the rows of letters "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah"? Why do people say bad things about me just for asking that? It looks like they would just describe the concept to me to stop me from asking. I really don't get it!

@EdwinMcCravy It's your choice of wording.

Please note that I did not say anything bad about you.

When communicating online, sans body language and tonal inflection, choice of wording and phrasing are paramount to being precise in getting your meaning across.

Another way to clear up misunderstandings is to state your tone up front or offer to clarify via further explanation for your questions.

It's always possible that you've been misunderstood. Choose your words wisely. Maybe stay away from such phrases as, "you people"
That very much comes across as antagonistic.

Edited
4

When you're raised to believe in blood sacrifice, human sacrifice, sin and all manor of superstitious crap from infancy as part of your culture you have to step by step remove yourself from all of that while dealing with social pressure from friends and relatives to come back.
Any progress is good.
Agnostics are atheist that haven't fully accepted their true nature yet.
Give them time, they're dealing with enough already.

Novelty Level 8 Apr 13, 2019

Do you have any mental concept of God?

@EdwinMcCravy I've had several during my life, each more progressively elaborate, now I prefer to not muddy my thinking with such crap.

4

The queendom of Zoz reigns supreme.

3

I find it quite incredulous that you have no concept of what that word could mean.

3

Letters and words are symbols: upon which we hang meaning. Those symbols then take on meaning and emotion depending on context. If I say "goddammit" here on this site, chances are it will go totally unnoticed. If I said "goddammit" on a Christian Website, the hate comments would be down to the floor. The "N" word, a word I would never use, is considered highly volatile, but its all over the place in my iTunes playlist. Language if about way more than letters, words, and sentences... or sounds for that matter.

Benthoven Level 8 Apr 13, 2019
3

I think maybe part of the reason you are having a hard time understanding the concept is that you are only giving credit to your own views and beliefs or lack thereof. When a person explains to you, for example, that they are agnostic, and that to them that means they have no definitive proof for or against a god or gods, and that based on that lack of proof they do not chose to pick a side, it isn't about weather or not a word has a particular meaning to you. Their response is to show what a word means to them, or makes them feel. It doesn't have to resonate with you in order to do so with them. It seems that you understand quite well what these people's replies mean, you just don't agree with them. That's ok. We don't all have to agree.

Byrd Level 7 Apr 13, 2019
3

I think you're judging others by you're disinterest in self-labeling. A wise woman once told me, "Don't judge others the same way you judge yourself." I'm paying that forward, to you.

Judging others? Not at all. If you claim to know how to conjure up a mental image for anything you believe that Christians, Jews and Muslims are referring to by "God", "Yahweh", "Allah", or "infinite spirit that is omnipresent and creator of the universe", then why won't you share with me how to go about having the concept? If you can do that maybe I can become an agnostic or atheist, but then I'll know what to disbelieve in or to withhold judgment on the the existence of.

@EdwinMcCravy The glory of being a free thinking being means I don't need or want to help anyone conjure up anything. I'm not here to proselytize, whether that is for or against anything. Well, but Trump. I'm here to spew as much venom about Trump as possible, but that's a different topic.

@EdwinMcCravy It seems pretty obvious to me that you are stuck in an Abrahamic context. There are many more religions than the Abrahamic ones. So I would suggest that as a first check on yourself; expand your view beyond the Abrahamic faiths, and also into the past to "dead" religions.

@bingst Indeed! If one were Hindu, for example, you might wisp l worship 1 God in 33 million forms, or 33 million gods. And it isn't a dead religion. ?

3

Other than the obvious, that it's more comfortable for a lot of people than declaring atheism, the whole subject bores most of us to tears... you can read old posts on it by the hour if you care to.

Allamanda Level 7 Apr 13, 2019

But I don't declare atheism or agnosticism (and certainly not theism) for I don't have any mental concept of anything labeled "God" to disbelieve in, so I don't know what you're saying that you don't believe in.

@EdwinMcCravy I'm sorry that you didn't take the hint - most of us don't want to engage in any more useless semantics.

@Allamanda Look up "semantics". Notice the similarity of the words "seMANtics and "MeANing". See the M,A,N? (It's not talking about a man), but it shows the etymological relationship of the word "semantics" to the word "MeANing". "Semantics" essentially means "meaning". So do you really tell me that I didn't take the hint that most on here don't want to engage in any more useless talk about meaning? If so, it shows that you'd rather believe God has meaning on faith without evidence.

@EdwinMcCravy no it shows you are remarkably obtuse.

2

Firstly, you have to understand that agnosticism isn't strictly about a god or gods, it's actually much broader than that.
This definition might help. [merriam-webster.com]

bingst Level 8 Apr 13, 2019
2

We don't believe there is some divine creator nor an "ultradaddy" that surveils and punishes us. I'm not getting into discussions of philology or semantics because I don't care about that, and I see you posted this only to argue with all the people that post comments. Why don't you create the Group "Languaje" and post it there!

2

i'm not an agnostic. i'm an atheist. i still feel you may be addressing the likes of me, here. not everyone defines god the same way. some think "god is everywhere," meaning there is some kind of spirit in trees and clouds. others think he (always male, huh?) is a creator of universes. still others thing he, she or it is a caring entity who either controls things on earth or listens to prayers and either grants or denies them. i don't CARE. i don't believe in any supernational beings, be they leprechauns, all-knowing all-powerful creators, arbitors of who goes to the nonexistent heaven or the nonexistent hell in the nonexistent afterlife or just a spirit in a tree. it's all nonsense, and i have no emotional attachment to, or antipathy toward, any of it. i may have some antipathy to those who most energetically promoite it, and definitely toward those who blur the line between church and state.

by the way, "god" doesn't have three letters in every language. ALL words are just sounds. they hold whatever meaning, if any, has been assigned to them in any given language. the last part of your rant makes no sense at all. zoz. who cares?

g

genessa Level 8 Apr 13, 2019

You said "...by the way, "god" doesn't have three letters in every language.... Haven't you noticed me listing "Yahweh" with 6 letters and "Allah" with 5 letters along with (capitalized) "God" (not "god" )? Did you really believe that I didn't know that? Do you not believe that I already knew without your telling me that I could replace "God" with "Allah" and "3 letters" with "5 letters" and say the same thing? Also, I repeat, it's "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah, not "god", yahweh, and allah. Zeus was a god. They drew pictures and made statues of Zeus that are still around today. Theists today do not believe in Zeus or ANY god. You say "words hold whatever meaning, if any, has been assigned to them in any given language." I notice you said "IF ANY". Hooray for you! There's hope for you to see the light, that religion is not belief in a god, but the belief that they believes in a god when they don't. Your "if any", makes me think you aren't sure that "God" is a meaningful word, right? Don't you realize that your saying that proves that you don't know what it means? Does it really mean anything? You've himted that it is meaningless TO YOU. You just think somebody else might know a meaning for it, right.

...the last part of your rant makes no sense at all. zoz. who cares?...

What's zoz? What's God, Yahweh, and Allah? I don't believe you know. zoz makes no sense, God makes no sense, Yahweh makes no sense, Allah makes no sense.
...Who cares?...
I care about humanity and believe that it desperately need to get rid of all religion. So I don't want anybody to have ANY KIND of BELIEF ON FAITH! And the belief that a row of letters means something even though you can't think of what it means. - is a kind of faith that I'd like to destroy. Wouldn't you like to destroy belief on faith? Now I'm NOT saying to destroy optimistic hope. That's a great thing to have. I'm talking about belief, not optimistic hope.

@EdwinMcCravy oh okay, i see you didn't understand a word i said and are still in the mood to rant in an incomprehensibly hostile way. go destroy something. whatever.

g

2

I go back to Aristotle and his "Prime Mover" argument. In a chain of causality, where every effect has a cause, what is the prime cause? Is there a cause that is not the effect of another cause? St. Thomas Aquinas later used this argument to equate "God" with the "Prime Mover". "God" is a generic term to refer to a being that gives the universe purpose and intent, where otherwise everything would be random. In that context, exactly who "God" is is not relevant. Either such a being exists or it doesn't. As an agnostic, I would argue that I do not know enough about the nature of the universe to rule out the existence of the "prime mover". You can call it "Zoz" if you want, it doesn't change the argument. It just gives a verbal handle for the proposed supernatural entity.

piphirho Level 5 Apr 13, 2019
2

If you: "can't claim to be either a theist, an atheist, or an agnostic", then what are asking anyone else for?

To find out about you.

@EdwinMcCravy the question has to also interest the person asked.

1

Neither Atheism nor Agnosticism are specific to any deity, let alone the Christian God. One word refers to the lack of belief in a deity or deities, the other as to whether or not it's even possible to know if one exists.

The difference between them is subtle, but one is not contradictory to the other.

The difference is a category distinction. All agnostics are atheistic,though not all atheists are agnostic

1

Why do you need to be filled in? Like most of us here, you live comfortably without deities and the common words use to label them. Being defined as an agnostic simply means one realizes we have many fellow humans who won't give up their fantasies and religious cultures. We can live with that as long as they don't try to influence politics or education.

MuniJohn Level 5 Apr 13, 2019
1

When I use the term, I just specifically mean that I don't know if there IS any kind of creator or afterlife so I'm not going to sit back and just assume that I 100% KNOW that a Creator or afterlife isn't real.

Expozane Level 4 Apr 13, 2019
1

Humans think in metaphors and frames. You are ignoring cognitive science in your comments.

ToolGuy Level 7 Apr 13, 2019

Ignoring cognitive science? What cognitive science do you think I'm ignoring by not being able to have a mental concept of anything to call "God", "Yahweh", or "Allah"? If you know something I don't know, kindly tell me.

@EdwinMcCravy The very last sentence and some other phrases.

0

What's wrong with my asking people to describe the mental concept they claim to have for the words "God" (capitalized, not "god" ), "Yahweh" and "Allah", when spoken by a Christian, Jew or Muslim? I simply do not have any mental concept for it. If you do, then wouldn't it make more sense to just describe it for me than to CHEW MY ASS OUT FOR ASKING IT?????

0

Do you have any evidence to prove that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words? Surely you don't just assume they are 'on faith' like the theists do, do you?

0

In my view atheist has become such a dirty word that the creator of this site was too scared to use the word in fear of causing offence. American cultures be strange to Brits.

chazwin Level 5 Apr 14, 2019

It probably has much more to do with the availability and economics of domain names.

0

God defined as a word of open definition and usage, in that any person could give any usage or define it in any way, whether logical, provable, real, surreal or not. 

There are some things labeled by this word that have more popularity than others. There are groups of people that give a certain definition to this word that the agree on and follow for that group. There are those that would say there is nothing in existence that this word would properly label. 

There are those that do not have evidence for a reason to label anything with this word. There are those that could never know what to label with this word. 

A very uncommon word for how it is used comes from Germanic origin of meaning to call or invoke and now in fact exist as a word in English spelt with the letters G, O, and D. 

As explained below, people can be labelled as Gods. Jesus, lord of host most High lucipher the devil,  is of the Angelic host. People-Gods could decide to end Christianity. Angel worship isn't recommended.  No wonder Jesus has not showed back up. 

I created Taco God. Taco God is real. Taco God is a person. Any person that has eaten a taco is a Taco God. Tacos are real, people are real and people really eat tacos.

Taco God is not evidence for ANY OTHER GOD but it is in fact A God. And it only takes one God to give evidence that atheism is illogical by defination. Because atheism by defination says: no gods exist. Taco God is proven to exist.

Taco God is backed by peer reviewed text that has been peer reviewed for 1000s of years and the text is the most copied world record holding text of its kind. Taco God is real and really exist. Atheism Illogical.

I created Taco God. Taco God is a person. That person has eaten 1 taco in their life. Have you eaten a taco in you life? You then would be a Taco God. Millions and billions of taco gods exist because a lot of people has eated a taco. Taco God is everywhere, almost omnipresent even. Taco God knows almost everything, nearly omniscient, its just all split up into each individuals own minds relative to their perspective.  

3 different references that people are Gods. With out disputing truth or fiction of Jesus character, it is written that Jesus style God argued that people are Gods. 

Isaiah 41:23 Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye are gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold it together.

Psalms 82:6  I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Antifred Level 7 Apr 14, 2019

I know this is picky, but that’s me! If you are going to quote the OT and NT frequently how about referencing a more contemporary version than KJV. It is probably a bit painful for some people as it is an immediate connection with many people’s bad experiences with Christianity due to its deliberate Puritan weighting in translation. When I was a child I thought this was how people spoke in Judea and Palestine. It was only when I was older that I discovered it was a rhetorical version designed to imply authority of Puritanical interpretation and remained within our Christian context to reinforce that authority by antiquity.

Edited

@Geoffrey51 I understand your point. I grew up KJV, new king James and new international versions mostly. I have at times of studying past used several different versions comparing translations to get as best understanding as I could from passages.

"...imply authority by antiquity." you say in an interesting way, a rather true view.

Something I understand of early Roman Catholicism, they didn't teach the text very well and used people's illiteracy to control them.

When posting here, I usually do it on the fly, so to say. So, I am not writing here to display a well organized essay most time. If someone actually has interest in discussion of my statements here, then they would discuss, do their own research or ask me for any clarification my speed typing errors.

Most illogical atheist here just want to do a drive by Ad hominem after just glancing at my post and comments.

0

It's all about labels and it sparks many debates. I have discovered in my life that I have no evidence of a creator being and I am no longer a believer in one. I did believe in my past, but I was fooled by people who also had no evidence.

DenoPenno Level 8 Apr 13, 2019
0

Good point about this word and the reaction people have. Change the word God to "Gerald" and how would people react? "Gerald loves me. I'm agnostic about Gerald. Son of Gerald born of a virgin. It's the Will of Gerald." Gerald is just a sound formed in our brains expressed in speech. So is God. The word is used to provoke an emotional response. But it's just a word, a sound. Atheists like me either never have had, or have expunged, an emotional response to this sound. It's just a sound. It doesn't mean anything.

David1955 Level 7 Apr 13, 2019
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