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I got into a discussion with my aunt about pro life vs pro choice. To make a long story short it's so hard to get a pro lifer to see things outside of their religious beliefs. I find it hard to get her to understand that by being pro life and picking to be that based on religion intern is forcing her religion upon others and it's just wrong. Have your opinion, just done take away my choice to make decisions for my body and life. I'm just upset. She's my family and I just hate her views. I couldn't believe she said liberals think their opinion is the only one. I feel the opposite. Per her religious belief for which she picks her political representatives, I think shows she's imposing her opinion on me in a manor in which seems she believes to be the only right one by choosing her candidates based on religious values. Does that make sense?

By ZaddyP3
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9 comments

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0

There are people that are pro-life and are not religious. I know that many religious people cite their religion in their argument, but many arguments boil down to a respect for life and not supporting murder - which can stand alone as a reasonable argument.

BTW - it's not your body that you are killing, so there's that.

Finally - I would like to point out than many comments here stated that pro-lifers don't care about the child once it's born (food, shelter, etc). Maybe yes, maybe no - but if you support murder, then you don't care about that stuff either - so please don't use that hypocritical argument either.

jondspen Level 7 Apr 14, 2019

If you use the term murder here you disqualify yourself from the debate. A point that has been made to you many many times before

@OwlInASack Killing a pregnant woman results in two murder charges.

@TheInterlooper ok - but should it? The poster in question routinely turns up to any abortion debate and throws out this stuff with no intention of trying to understand that possibly we have also considered the murder point and come to different conclusions.

That he uses the term ‘whore’ below for the women involved might help you understand his perspective and why robust reaction to his childishness won’t be restricted to just me.

@OwlInASack I'm not sure. I'm just pointing out that killing an unborn fetus is considered murder in certain circumstances.

I don't believe his lack of tact should disqualify him from the debate. It is a contentious topic. I can understand having an emotional outburst.

@TheInterlooper it’s not a lack of tact: it’s the inability to appreciate any other view than your own and therefore to just get abusive. Simple really.

Calling women who have sex and get pregnant unintentionally ‘whores’ is more than a lack of tact. As this has been pointed out to him on many occasions I won’t be alone in being past his childishness

@OwlInASack I will not join your crusade for moral superiority. Have a "like" hopefully the dopamine rush you get from it fills the void in your life.

@TheInterlooper I see. You’ve studied at the same stable as the OP and just get abusive too

Congratulations there.

@OwlInASack Poor guy. Why is everyone so abusive toward you?

@TheInterlooper oh - it’s not everyone. Just the right wingers when they run out of actual points to make

And surely you can answer the question better than me?

@OwlInASack Your pious attitude is grating. Are you sure you wouldn't be more comfortable at church? They also like to bloviate about how righteous they are.

@TheInterlooper my word - as if to demonstrate my point to the deepest possible extent. Do keep posting...

That mask slipped a little eh?

@OwlInASack Maybe because every comment you make is an attempt to achieve moral or intellectual superiority? It distracts from people who actually want to debate the issue at hand.

@TheInterlooper is it? Well I don’t think so, so we may have to disagree there. After all if it were true it wouldn’t be just the right wing who stop posting stuff relevant to the discussion and just descend into personal abuse.

But good luck with that line yourself. Trust it serves you well. You are after all backing someone here who calls women who have sex and unintentional pregnancy ‘whores’.

Well fair enough...

@OwlInASack Mask? Project much? The irony! Everyone knows I'm an asshole. I make no bones about it. You're the one with a crusade to convince people of your righteousness. What kind of skeletons are in your closet?

@TheInterlooper for real?

I’ve absolutely no idea who you are. I can’t imagine being ok with being an asshole

And I have no crusade about my righteousness. I give a fairly big shit about some issues and will wade in robustly.

The big skeleton in my closet is my faith which I had through to age 30+. That was pretty bad. Otherwise none I can think of. Weird comment

@OwlInASack On second thought, maybe I am more of a dick than an asshole?

@OwlInASack You continually white knight, and throw out disparaging remarks about a persons humanity and without ever making a point. I would like to hear how you equate my comments of 'murderer' as disqualifying myself from the debate - other than you just don't like what I have to say. It is a human life that is being killed, just because the woman can't take precautions to avoid a pregnancy, and does so only b/c it isn't convenient for her life plans at the moment. There are exceptions to this situation, but the majority of abortions today fall in this category - and it is these sluts irresponsibility that I take issue with.

@TheInterlooper That video is fucking hilarious! LMAO. TY! I would like to state that I never FORCED her to have sex or get pregnant in the first place. Much as men are expected to pay child support for children, I don't see it unreasonable for her to carry a child which is a complete and separate human life, or better yet, have some responsibility and take reasonable actions to NOT become pregnant in the first place. After all, like the argument used against men, "You knew what you were doing and what could happen - so take responsibility"! This of course would preclude rape conceptions, and actual abortions that would endanger her life (which is only 1% of all abortions in the US).

@jondspen

You continually white knight

A phrase straight out of the MRA handbook. You know a child can see massive holes in your argument and just repeating the same old stuff doesn’t make it more true. Getting abusive right up front is indicative of an inability to think about others points.

Here’s something: many here will have learned to be ashamed of having believed the simple things you believe and the find that it was more complex than that and a lot less black and white

Don’t suppose that will persuade you but it’s worth a try.

There is as much point discussing with you and your abuse as there is with any fundamentalist.

Good luck with it. As with the others on here into that kind of argument I do hope it serves you well or something

@OwlInASack So what are my massive holes? Why don't you actually make a point, instead of just spouting off "You lose, I win" type arguments? You always insult people on their POV when you don't agree with them, call them simplistic, childish, immoral, etc, but you never actually give an argument on WHY they are wrong. You never point to any data, facts, or research. You just say they are wrong b/c they are wrong - and I am right b/c I am a better person than you.

Why can't the woman take precautions to avoid an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy? Diaphragms or other IUD, condoms, spermicide, birth control pills - are all viable options for a reasonable and responsible person to incorporate before hand, instead of using abortion (aka murder in my opinion) as the go to birth control measure, because oopsie - she can't be responsible for her actions before hand and take a little precaution? 4 million plus abortions every year is NOT due to faulty condoms or birth control pills or spermicide that didn't work properly. 4 million abortions per year are also not a product of medical emergencies to save the woman's life, or from rape victims that became pregnant - situation that I can understand the logic for the abortion argument. If abortions were severely limited tomorrow, women that don't want kids would not become celibate, they would take the above proposed measure to ensure they didn't become pregnant - aka act a little more responsible and aware of the consequences of their actions.

@jondspen nope. You’re an aggressively rude abuser. Try someone else. I’ve explained why you’re not getting engagement from me.

@OwlInASack yet you still engage with personal attacks and no logic or arguments. I read through my prior posts down to your last comment and NO WHERE in it did I say anything insulting to you - yet you still come back with the same insults against me, saying I'm insulting. Its really quite sad.

@Chooseluv First, it's not just her life and her choices she is making a decision on - and that is the whole crux of the problem. To think an unplanned pregnancy and decision about abortion only affect the women, is simple minded, selfish, and just plain ignorant/stupid.

I agree the man should wrap it. Why the hell in todays F ed up family court system would a man want to be financially fleeced for 18 years? I don't have a problem with men not being stupid and taking self preservation measures to avoid being tied to one of today's pathetic excuse for western feminist women. I also feel that if it's my future, my health, and my life that is going to be adversely affected by irresponsible actions - I shouldn't be spouting feminism equality while at the same time making stupid and irresponsible decisions that I can easily avoid - and do so while blaming someone else they didn't protect me from my own dumb ass.

And guess what - I was a single dad - full time. Not only did I have to deal with all the same struggles as you endured, but I had to deal with a sexist family court system and society that doesn't hold women to nearly the same child support standards as men, nor offer any emotional support to men struggling. I would also ask, how many of your single moms get child support? How many of your single moms initiated the divorce if they were married? B/c statistically, no, men can't and don't just "walk away" without any responsibility. Women are granted custody 80%+ of the time based on sexist views, and initiate 65+% of all divorces in the US. They are granted WAY more often custody, and WAY more often are awarded judgement for support compared to single fathers. And while this little tangent you want to bring into the discussion is interesting, it still doesn't change the facts. If a woman's body is her own, and she should be allowed to make decisions about it - then why the hell isn't it reasonable she at least be forced to take reasonable precautions? You have to wear a damn helmet when riding a motorcycle in most states, and you have to wear a damn seat belt in every state when driving a car. IMHO getting knocked up is a far worse situation to be irresponsible about. At least on a bike or in a car, the person you kill without self safety is just yourself!

52.3% of custodial single mothers were awarded child support in 2013
31.4% of custodial single fathers were awarded child support during the same year
[verywellfamily.com]

@jondspen you call women whores. That’ll do it. You been aggressive and rude to me plenty in the past: it’s your MO - along with pretty much every other right winger on this board. That’s what you do.

So nope

@OwlInASack No...I called a woman who acts like a whore a whore. I also call people who act like idiots - idiots.

@jondspen that’s lovely for you. Good luck with that approach in life

@OwlInASack Well thank you - been working pretty good for me thus far. Pisses lots of thin skinned whiny bitches off, but those people I don't have much use for anyway, since they are usually the one's that deep deep deep down know they are a whore or an idiot, or both.

@jondspen excellent. Keep going with it then.

thin skinned whiny bitches

whore

idiot

Nice work.

Insulting the world around you generally does work out well. Look at how far that’s got your president after all. And like you he is completely inoculated from facts and detail as a result.

@OwlInASack Wow - you make such uneducated and unfounded assumption at every turn. Never voted for him, don't support ANY politicians, and since you're an American citizen, he is your president too. Not sure if you're aware how that works. So if insulting the world around you doesn't work, why is that your #1 go to on here all the time?

BTW - ty for the continual comments. You are greatly helping my point level!

@jondspen hmmm.. there is more than one serious inaccuracy you need to check there. And I’m not talking about the fallacy of who you voted for indicating your political persuasion. No empathy, hate all the things you hate: Conservative.

1

I have often explained to people that just because I am pro choice, that does not necessarily mean I am pro abortion....it means I feel I don’t have the right to tell a woman or a couple with to do with her body.

The religious right has a hard time understanding that this country is not a Christian country, and that should not be governed as such.

If your beliefs prohibit abortion....then that is your choice and your right to not have one. But that doesn’t mean every woman holds to those religious beliefs.

Matty315 Level 5 Apr 14, 2019
0

I gave up on that group a long time ago... They are the most devout Lemmings on the planet... Sad to say but do yourself a favor and learn to Love your own view and feelings without needing anyone else to be ok with your feelings, and Life will get infinitely better the sooner you do! ? ? ?

1

There is a difference in opinion on when life begins and when it is considered murder to kill something. Even if two people agree on that point there is still the different opinion on the murder/non-murder weighed against a persons right to their bodies. No amount of debate will change most people’s mind either way.

I also don’t think the way a person votes means forcing their beliefs on someone. If you do think so then that principle applies to all voters.

The stance, "I will vote to take away your bodily autonomy, but if it becomes law, I didn't force it on you", makes no sense. It is an abdication of personal responsibility.

@Roadster I would agree in situations where specific issues are being voted on, but less so in situations where a candidate is being voted on.

I understand the point but drawing a line at any point while the foetus is in utero and saying now it is human and inviolate, brings enourmous philosophical problems which are never addressed by the anti-choice, ‘control their uterus’ brigade.

@indirect76 And yet your vote helped put the policy in place. Just because a decision is not easy or clean, doesn't absolve the individual from the impacts of making it. Sometimes, we are in hard places and have to make hard decisions, we are still responsibile for the outcomes of those decisions. If we pretend we are not, we have no reason to try to correct for the bad outcomes.

@Roadster It’s probably best to note vote at all then.

@indirect76 That is also a decision that has consequences. I think we would function better as a society, if we all acknowledged the decisions we make, with both their good and bad outcomes. It is okay to say decided A and B was the bad side effect. I value A over B, but I still have some responsibility to make B better. Unfortunately, most people pretend that their actions don't have side affects and ignore them.

0

Very frustrating. Hard to haggle with their god. Try to make her a deal... she supports policies which are humane and assist the living, and you can meet her half way by supporting the unborn starting at X week in the pregnancy.

KevinMR Level 6 Apr 14, 2019
5

Tell her Mayor Pete would be right up her Christian alley. Well, except that whole "he's gay" thing.

How about really rocking her boat? Give her the Biblical scriptures that not only support abortion, it's demanded.

Abortion Biblical Style
Numbers 5:11-31 New International Version (NIV)
The Test for an Unfaithful Wife
11 Then the Lord said to Moses,
12 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man’s wife goes astray and is unfaithful to him
13 so that another man has sexual relations with her, and this is hidden from her husband and her impurity is undetected (since there is no witness against her and she has not been caught in the act),
14 and if feelings of jealousy come over her husband and he suspects his wife and she is impure—or if he is jealous and suspects her even though she is not impure—
15 then he is to take his wife to the priest. He must also take an offering of a tenth of an ephah[a] of barley flour on her behalf. He must not pour olive oil on it or put incense on it, because it is a grain offering for jealousy, a reminder-offering to draw attention to wrongdoing.

16 “‘The priest shall bring her and have her stand before the Lord.
17 Then he shall take some holy water in a clay jar and put some dust from the tabernacle floor into the water.
18 After the priest has had the woman stand before the Lord, he shall loosen her hair and place in her hands the reminder-offering, the grain offering for jealousy, while he himself holds the bitter water that brings a curse.
19 Then the priest shall put the woman under oath and say to her, “If no other man has had sexual relations with you and you have not gone astray and become impure while married to your husband, may this bitter water that brings a curse not harm you.
20 But if you have gone astray while married to your husband and you have made yourself impure by having sexual relations with a man other than your husband”—
21 here the priest is to put the woman under this curse—“may the Lord cause you to become a curse[b] among your people when he makes your womb miscarry and your abdomen swell.
22 May this water that brings a curse enter your body so that your abdomen swells or your womb miscarries.”

🙂

Maybe Joseph should have done that to Mary.

Nothing like Bible Facts to really annoy the Believers! 😜😉😊

I might steal that for my next argument against religious pro-lifers...

1

Most "pro-lifers" are also pro-death penalty, so that makes them hypocrites.
They are also not really pro-life, they're just pro-birth. They really don't care what happens to children after they're born. They generally don't support assistance for families, or food stamps, or better education, etc.
Dealing with them is very frustrating.

KKGator Level 9 Apr 14, 2019

@Biptu A fetus has no intrinsic value. Essentially, it's just a parasite.
I have no issue with abortion on demand, at any point in the pregnancy.
The woman who is already here is more important than any fetus will ever be.

0

Pro-lifers truly think it’s murder to abort a fetus. They believe it’s fully human. Unfortunately there’s no medical consensus as to when the fetus becomes a viable human being, none that I know of anyway. I’d say maybe when the brain really develops, personally.

They tend to be against any and all sex education, which includes the reproductive process. They think embryos have fingers and toes, so all of their propaganda involves photos of infants, or medical photos from third world countries which are actually late-term stillborns. It's insane. If they were forced to dig through a woman's period, looking for the microscopic fertilized egg, then they might get it, but most prefer to stay ignorant.

@HomeAloneSunday my brother’s mother-in-law is a retired nurse who worked for a while in a clinic that provided prenatal (and I assume postnatal) care, and she’d show her patients a case of little rubber fetuses and point out that they had heads and bodies so they’re fully human.

This same woman is a devout Catholic who derives inspiration from sitting and staring at bread in a cabinet. (Apparently that’s a thing.) She loves Trump because she thinks he’s going to undo Roe vs. Wade. I think my brother just avoids talking about these things with her to keep the peace.

4

I object to the term, Pro-life. So that means everyone else is anti-life, or pro-death?

Moreover it implies that people actually care about “life” when they often have no concern about whether that child will have a place to live, food to eat, medical care, or parents who love or even want them.

@A2Jennifer Exactly

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