Agnostic.com

20 9

The person who has never really attempted to ask himself or herself the basic questions of philosophy does not really know himself or herself. he or she is adrift in a highly complex world and open to manipulation.

Among the basic questions are the following: What is my reality? What makes it real? How and what do we know, and how do we know it? What is knowledge? How do we learn and what is learning? What do we value? Why do we value it? What are the consequences of valuing it? What is morality. What is a defensible moral code?

wordywalt 9 May 2
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

20 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

1

Goof questions to ask oneself. Wish more people did so instead of watching propaganda tv.

0

Took basic course in college

1

That's your opinion. Enjoying your judgmental position?

To grow and mature, I don't need to ask your list of questions.

The Marks of Maturity (Psychology Today)

[psychologytoday.com]

The important thing is not the specific questions, but the serious and sustained attempt.

1

We might never get the answer, but it is useful to question

1

I don't think about any of that stuff. Call me adrift.

Okay.

1

I would say we're more enlightened and aware and perhaps more fulfilled if we do spend more than a moment here and there reflecting upon those questions and similar ones. I often find it satisfying to think upon philosophical questions.

As for what we need or don't really need -- my own view is that that term can obviously apply to survival; but it also can legitimately be applied to things that are not essential to survival, but necessary in order to live more satisfying and fulfilling lives.

4

I never really contemplated my life until I read Plato's Republic. It was when I began examining my life for true lies.

plato's republic is about as possible as utopia. always has been; always will be.

Was there once a movie called "True Lies"? I'll look it up.

Yes, there was. It was an action/comedy and it starred Arnold Schwarzenegger and Jamie Lee Curtis. [en.wikipedia.org]

@callmedubious the point is not that Plato's republic could happen, but the reading provides numerous applicable lessons.

@irascible true lies are those lies that we tell ourselves in order to deal with reality. We tell them to ourselves repeatedly, so that eventually they become true to us.

@irascible the concept changed my life as I began to seek out and try to remove them from my life

4

This is your personal view and it seems to me to be a bit dogmatic to apply it to everyone. We all have our own philosophy of life, whether we put it into words or not, but it doesn't have to be a compulsory Philosophy 101

What I am swaying is that we all need to be reflective about who we are, what makes us whawe are, and what effects we have on others. Do not put word in my mouth. t

@wordywalt That's not what you said above. You said that if we didn't ask ourselves your questions we are adrift and manipulable.

@CeliaVL yup, that's what was posted, and I found it elitist & offensive......

2

As a musician all I can say is I know reality when I'm playing...it's vivid.

5

That is total rubbish. What is important to you is not to anyone else. There are many ways to ponder about the world and yours is just yours, that does not mean that mine or anyone else ways are wrong. Where does all this come from telling people that they don't know themselves if they don't ask themselves these questions?

Do not put words into my mouth. What I said in different words is that we all need to ponder who we are, what our purpose is in life, and what impacts we have on others. Too many people do not do that.

@wordywalt No one needs to do this, I understand you want them too as you wish to live in an enlightened world. I do too. But people have to want it. They have no requirement or need to. We as a species do not even need to exist. We wish to or not. Some of us not and kill ourselves. As someone else mentioned the world is ruled by and large by very unenlightened people. Power corrupts. And all the enlightenment and self awareness in the world never stopped a bullet once fired.

@Quarm You are right. People have to feel the need to do it. No they don't have to just to exist. But, they will live much fuller and richer lives if they do.

@wordywalt Maybe but as someone who has lived both sides of the divide here in the US there is equal meaning on both sides. It is those who judge others whom they do not know who are wrong. A rancher, farm hand, black smith, maid, cook, all can find find enlightenment in a job well done then a doctor, lawyer, teacher, scientist. And if someone finds there peace in the Bible rather then the Science text more power to them. Its the ones on both sides who feel the need to control others that are I think the problem.

@wordywalt says who, you elitist?? Some of us are busy actually living, maybe even trying hard to stay alive, while you and your navel-gazing produce Nothing, not even an effect.
Talk about trying to control people.........pot, meet kettle.

2

not everyone is that intelligent, and by saying so i am not putting anyone down. not everyone can do this. most people would not even understand those questions. they just want bread and circuses and someone to love. we may think they're not living life fully, but maybe we shouldn't expect so much from the average person.

g

Or, maybe we & our 2 year old, need to avoid being murdered by our spouse. I'm Kinda a bit busy for navel-gazing, ya know?

@AnneWimsey yeah little distractions like that. survival looms large on some folks' priorities list for some strange reason. it is hard to contemplate the meaning of life when you are frantically trying to make sure you even HAVE a life.

g

3

I ask myself those questions all the time but myself never gives the answer. I have concluded that in the final analysis no one knows much of anything. Boy, talking about being adrift in a complex world, that would be me. That doesn’t mean I am subject to manipulation however. How does that follow?

My best suspicion is that my self along with my reality is an illusion. Knowledge is also nothing but a shallow illusion. The only thing real as far as I can see is conscious awareness, and that is what I value but I have no idea of what it is.

Morality? Stay out of jail. Stay alive and stick with your friends and family.

@MissKathleen All you know is what right now is happening to you. For me the only reason I am still here is a sense of very twisted humor and a stubborn wish to give a great big fuck you to all the haters out there.

"Morality? Stay out of jail. Stay alive and stick with your friends and family." Well said sir!

5

That's your opinion... 😂😂😪

That is right. And, I will live by it.

@wordywalt do you realize that politicians, lawyers, etc, would say the same things that a philosopher would say? It's all a matter of one's perspective... What's right for you isn't right for all... Think about that... 😊

6

I remember trying to have a philosophical discussion with a friend of mine long ago...I was on a path of self-discovery and "enlightenment"...totally arrogant and perhaps capsulized in my bubble of privilege and wealth...

Her response to me popped that bubble and I have never forgotten it:

Who can even entertainment esoteric discussions when most are simply trying to feed their kids, pay the bills, and stay employed? It is a luxury that only a few can have and it will be lonely place for you. You will discover yourself while the rest of the world deals with the harshness of reality.

I think Maslow's hierarchy of need has some merit in this context. It does seem to me there is an effort to keep working people on the lower levels of this hierarchy by restricting pay and benefits. In someways I think this defies logic. Why should cooks and janitors be paid so little when they are the ones that free up time and space for others to accomplish greater things?

Why does it seem that human social systems always require a monarchy of one kind or another. If all people really are equal, why do our social systems insist that some are more equal than others?

Sorry, I don't have any answers. I just have a lot of questions that seem similar to yours.

@Normanbites The one maddening thing about Maslow's theory is that those higher up are able to look "down" and see the plight and struggles of those in the lower part of the pyramid...you would think that being able to do so would make them more likely to help pull them up so that they, too, can attain "enlightenment"...however, it doesn't seem to be that way...instead, as you said, pushing them down or keeping them down is the tendency..it is totally illogical...being higher up in the chain does not mean a person is elevated to do good...or perhaps, which is my theory, they only think they are higher up and need to be exposed as frauds...I don't think people are equal...I do think they are capable of being equal...but there are plenty who do not wish for them to get to that point...

@thinktwice ,
to be a little more concise: most ppl are assholes..
in cave man days the strong brute would control the rest. nowadays it is the pencil-necked geeks who decide the standard of living for avg hard working ppl.
and most of them are a bunch of despicable parasitic bastards.

@callmedubious hmmm...I think most of the theories out there are simply to try to explain human behavior into neat pigeon holes when there are plenty of exceptions to the rules...I think it also depends on your personal experiences and outlook on life...I personally don't think most are assholes...perhaps easily influenced or under educated...I would have an equal concern if brute force ruled society ...I am not sure if I totally understand your description of who you think are the parasitic bastards...corporate types?

@thinktwice One character from history that drives me nutz is Voltaire. Generally I don't like the guy. But his quotes make me go "hmmmmm" .... this conversation brings to mind this quote; "The comfort of the Wealthy depends on an abundance of the poor."

@Normanbites yes...but he went against norms especially when it concerned religion and a lot of the quotes people banter around are taken out of context...I think those philosophers that survived the test of time did so for a reason...what they had to say can still be applied even today...excellent quote...apropos to this conversation for sure...thanks, BTW...wonderful chat today...

@callmedubious most people are NOT assholes, You are though......

@AnneWimsey ??? I think maybe you misread what he said? I thought he was agreeing to people who have an opportunity to help others and don't are assholes...do you disagree with that?

@thinktwice I got nothing like that from his post, it was simply claiming that since I have done little or no navel-gazing, I have wasted my life. I saw Nothing about helping others, in fact the opposite......

@AnneWimsey He was responding to my post above in which I said I often wondered why those higher in the hierarchy did the opposite of helping...but you see what you want...it is not my business to interpret for you or to defend him...apologies...

@thinktwice ,
yes corporate types. the US is ruled by a corporatocracy.

@AnneWimsey ,
we don't need to read each other. i'll make it easy.

@Normanbites Could be worth engaging with the social philosophy of Marx and Weber. Pretty good at describing stratification and how it works and why

4

Most people don’t give a shit one way or the other. So long as it’s possible to eat, drink and be with Mary, there’s no need to consider the deeper activities of our world. Food, football and frolics and all it’s right with the world.

That is why so many lives simply do not make a difference.

@wordywalt my life has made a bunch of difference (not all good) Without ANY navel-gazing claptrap.

@wordywalt that is the most arrogant thing i've read in the last five minutes at least. some lives don't make a difference? maybe they don't make a difference to YOU. they may very WELL make a difference to some loved ones, and who is to say that that difference doesn't MAKE the difference between someone's becoming a world-renowned scientist or a bum? how can you even contemplate saying that some people's lives don't make a difference?

g

4

Too many questions.... I'll get back when my head stops spinning

3

That's how I see it but that probably suits my nature. I think the purpose of life is simply to live it and put meaning into it. There are a lot of ways to do that.

how could you possibly put any meaning into your existence? could you put any more meaning in you life than an ant.
it's all a big cosmic joke. what meaning are you going to derive from that?

4

Be good to people

3

Well, how nice for you...my big questions at 19 were, will my husband d beat me & our child to death today, or perhaps wonder if I will be able to redeem the furniture (all of it) from the pawnshop he the got money to drink more from. In my second marriage, it was, which strange woman will call the house today demanding to speak to him, or perhaps, at age 38, what will my life look like after this brain-stem stroke?
I seem to have learned sufficient to now live a full & wonderful life, with friends, sufficient $$, and enough health to enjoy it. But thanks for pointing out I did it all wrong......

I did not say that you did it all wrong. Circumstances can bear so heavily on us that we sometimes do not have the time or energy to focus on these questions. But, when times improve ...?

I applaud your strength and resilience. I only wish I had survived some challenges with more $$$.

A lot of us did it "all wrong". Not many of us "chose" parents who could offer good guidance and example. So we can only rely on our own resourcefulness and some of the same thing that brought us our parents, "luck". It brings me compassion for others in more dire straights to keep this in mind.

I've been on a similar path and I know that while I contributed to the outcome, a lot of it was still just being in the right place at the right time with the right insight and resources. I'm glad your journey is turning out well.

@Serenityseeker yeah, "enough" money is WONDERFUL!

I feel like we both have experienced crazy things in life and no I guess we did do it wrong but screw that guy 🤣🤣🤷🏻♀️

0

That's an intelligence based thought. We are so outnumbered in the world LOL!!!

it is actually arrogance-based thought. look above to where he says that some people don't make a difference and then tell me it is anything but arrogant.

g

@genessa I have been accused of that. I bear that load. It's logical to believe that everyone and everything matters but to what degree?

@IAJO163 why "logical"? Stuff is mostly random, from where I stand.

@IAJO163 to what degree to WHOM? "matters" is subjective. you can't determine the degree to which anything or anyone matters to anyone but yourself, unless someone tells you how much it/s/he matters to him/her, and even then, how do you quantify it? you just can't say someone does or does not matter. (i mean, in a certain context you can. for example, i don't matter to donald trump. cats don't matter to climate change. but just matters, no context? nope. sorry.)

g

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:340696
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.