No, I'm not looking for sympathy. I'm hoping to teach atheists and agnostics what modern religion is all about. It's NOT a belief in a god, but the ILLUSION OF A BELIEF in a god. No god named "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" has been defined because "Ultimate Reality" and "Creator of the universe" are meaningless wordplay.

@Clare Look, Clare, either describe your mental concept of "God", "Jehovah", and "Allah" to me or be honest and admit that you're exactly like me in that you don't have one either.

@EdwinMcCravy because who died and made you the New Buddha? Your arrogance is astounding!

@AnneWimsey Arrogance? That means having or revealing an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities. Are you saying that since I am unable to believe that "God", "Yahweh" of "Allah" are meaningful words referring to some kind of imaginable thingamajig, that either I must keep quiet about my inability to believe that, for if I reveal it then I'm having having an exaggerated sense of one's own importance or abilities? Is the the way you see it?

@Clare You're wrong because it's not at all hard to have a concept of something that does not exist. Google "pictures of unicorn". Google "pictures of mermaids". Google "pictures of hoop snakes" You'll see very vivid pictures of things that do not exist. But it's impossible to have a mental concept of anything for the rows of alphabet letters "G-o-d", "Y-a-h-w-e-h", or "A-l-l-a-h" to refer to. If you think otherwise then kindly describe whatever mental concept you have for them to me, so I will be able to have those mental concepts myself.

@Clare I'm not talking about unreal things that do not exist. I'm talking about rows of letters like "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah". They do not refer to anything that does not exist. They also do not refer to anything that exists. Do you think that "Bloopety-doop" stands for something that doesn't exist, just because it doesn't refer to something that exists?

@Clare You know very well that you did not describe any mental concept of anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims worship. Many atheists speak as if they believe theists worship a flying spaghetti monster. They do that because they can't describe any mental concept for anything that Christians, Jews and Muslims actually mean by "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" They just don't want to admit it..

@EdwinMcCravy Still doing your darnedest to 'flog' the same dead horse I see.
Answer this for me, WHY should any Atheist/s, being for the most part a person/persons who DENY the existence of ANY and ALL Supreme Deity/Deities want/have or need a concept of that which they deny in the first places?
I AM an Atheist, I have been an Atheist since childhood, I have studied Theology and Comparative Modern Religions as a DECLARED Atheist whilst studying and gained a Doctorate in the same and yet I neither have/want/need a 'concept' of something that I, for one, am 110% certain has never existed and never will exist.

@Clare, @Triphid You can diss me all you want, and say that you don't want to describe any mental image for them. But you know damn well that neither of you have any mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" whatever. You just have a psychological need for them to stand for something imaginable like the word "unicorn" so you can say "I don't believe in God". You can't stand to admit that saying "I don't believe in God" is just as meaningless as saying "I don't believe in Sluberfrig".

@Clare Whether you "give a flying f--k" or not does not change the fact that it's obvious that you yourself don't have any mental concept of anything that "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" could refer to.

@EdwinMcCravy Why then is it so important to you that everyone MUST have a mental image of this God/Deity figure you are raving on about so ceaselessly?
Are you yet another those secret religious Trolls ('roaches as I like to call them btw) hellbent on dragging us Freethinkers, my own personal opinion here btw, down to your level?

Indeed rows of words like "Creator of the universe" and "Ultimate reality" are just linguistic wordplay. That's what I'm trying to tell you. "God"-talk is always just linguistic wordplay

piphirho "God" doesn't refer to an imaginary thing. "Unicorn" and "mermaid" refer to imaginary things. If you claim you can imagine something that Christians would label "God", please tell me what to imagine so I'll be able to imagine it too. I don't believe you can describe any concept for "God". If you can, then please do it and shut me up, OK?

@EdwinMcCravy wait..."god" is Completely an imaginary thing, exactly lie unicorns or Santa.......wth is wrong with you?!?

@AnneWimsey For something to be IMAGINary, you have to be able to IMAGINE it. If you can IMAGINE, i.e., have a mental concept of anything for "God", "Jehovah" and "Allah" to refer to, then either describe your mental concept to me or admit that you're just like me in that you don't really have one either.

@EdwinMcCravy nope, sorry, do not/cannot/will not waste my mind on useless junk, certainly not describe it for you.....

@AnneWimsey Since you think it is useless junk to speak of whether "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningless words or whether they meaningful words for something for which a mental concept can be had, then why waste your time posting that you think it is useless junk?

@AnneWimsey I don't believe that you have any mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah" when spoken by Christians, Jews, or Muslims. I call your bluff. Either describe the mental concept for them which you claim to have or be woman enough to admit that you're just like me in that you don't have any mental concept for them either.

@AnneWimsey Do you actually think that saying "nope, sorry, do not/cannot/will not waste my mind on useless junk, certainly not describe it for you....." should make me believe that you have a mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah"? All you want to do is diss me for not having your blind faith that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words.

AnneWimsey, Do you believe there is a mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and Allah"? If so, why not show that you do by describing the mental concept?

Then why not describe the mental concept of "God", "Jehovah" and "Allah", "Ultimate Reality" or "Creator of the universe" that you claim to have to me? That'll shut me up. I suspect very strongly that the reason you and others on here do not describe any mental concept you and they claim to have for "God", "Jehovah" and "Allah" is because you and they don't really have any mental concept of them, either, and are just like me in that respect.

@F-IM-Forty It’s like saying you have no concept of what Mickey Mouse means.

@F-IM-Forty Do you actually think that by saying "I can comprehend those words and meanings" shows in the least that you actually do have a mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah"? If you think so, it doesn't. I'm pretty sure that if you could have any such concept you would have described such mental concept to me. Do you think I'm wrong for thinking that you would have if you could have?

@indirect76 I have a very vivid mental concept for Walt Disney's creation "Mickey Mouse", but not for "God", "Yahweh", and "Allah". I don't believe you have any mental concept for them either. If you did, you'd be able to describe it for me.

@EdwinMcCravy All powerful being that wrote the Ten Commandments, doesn’t like gay sex and shellfish, freed the Jews from slavery, had a kid named Christ. Need I go on?

@F-IM-Forty The row of 11 alphabet letters with one space between the first 6 and the last 5 "Mickey Mouse" means. "Mickey Mouse" is very meaningful because everybody can easily have a vivid mental imagine of the mouse character that Walt Disney created. Of course Mickey Mouse does not exist, but that's irrelevant. The letters "Mickey Mouse" is meaningful because we can imagine Mickey Mouse even though Mickey does not exist. On the other hand, "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" do not refer to anything that does exist -- nor anything that does NOT exist. If you think you have a mental image of anything called "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah", then why not describe the mental concept to me so I can have it too?

Are you agnostic to money? Hahahaha

If there is a God the one man that can send you there is Mike Tyson... Lol

@EdwinMcCravy People worship different things. Money is not my god

It's OK if you don't give "two hoots" about whether I don't have any concept of "God", "Yahweh" or "Allah", but if you think you have such a concept, why won't you describe it to me so I could have it too? Surely you see that your not describing the concept you claim to have for "God" for me only makes me strongly suspect that you are exactly like me and have no such concept yourself. You just don't want to admit it to yourself. Isn't that right?

@EdwinMcCravy I don’t have a concept for god. I have no interest in a concept of god in the same way as I have no interest in who is the greatest rugby player

@Geoffrey51 If you have no interest in what is being discussed in a forum, then why post to tell us that you don't? Anyway it's easy to have a concept of a god. Google "Zeus" and you'll see pictures of the god Zeus which the ancient Greeks who worshiped Zeus drew of him. They put Zeus' picture on their coins. So it's not "god" with a small "g" that is meaningless for "god" is very meaningful. FI, it's not meaningless to say "His god is money". It's the capitalized "God" (not "god" ), "Yahweh" and "Allah" that are meaningless.

@Geoffrey51 Of course there is a concept for a god. Zeus was a nonexistent god. They drew pictures and make statues of him. They described him very well as a superhuman that lived on Mount Olympus. So there is a concept for the word "god". It's "God" (capitalized), "Yahweh" and "Allah" that are meaningless.

Triphid, unlike most of the the others on here, you do seem to realize that there is no mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" as there is for "Zeus", "Thor" and "Hercules". So you're right that I shouldn't be barking up YOUR particular tree. But look at all the others on here who have shown their blind faith that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words that refer to something that doesn't exist. If all atheists could realize the truth of TN, then that would force theist apologists to try to refute the claim "There is no mental concept for 'God', 'Yahweh' and 'Allah'" rather than "God does not exist". They wouldn't be able to start, for theological noncognitivism CANNOT be refuted. TN refutes theism, atheism and agnosticism.

@EdwinMcCravy Errr, what precisely is that you've drinking from the bottle you are carrying in your profile picture?

@Triphid When that picture was made I was drinking some truth serum from that bottle that made me realize that you yourself don't have any mental concept for "God", "Yahweh", or "Allah" either. So instead of admitting that you really don't, you changed the subject by asking what I was drinking in the picture. I am only able to believe that if you really had any mental concept for "God", you would have described it to me instead, for that would have proved me wrong instantly.

@EdwinMcCravy Oh ever so extremely funny, NOT.
A) 'Truth Serum' comes in injectable form ONLY, i.e. Sodium Pentothal, not in any form that can be made completely useless by the digestive juices of the stomach, ergo, someone, yourself perhaps imo, has been wanking you çhain' yet again, and,
b) any çoncept of God or Deity is one purely of a mental type, a DREAM of something Bigger, Stronger, more Powerful than a mere fallible human being therefore a THING onto which such a feeble, weak-minded, fallible human can pass the blame and responsibility, etc, for its own failings, misgivings, etc, etc.

@Triphid Why don't you describe the DREAM that you believe on faith that theists have when they do something you think they do that you call "dream of God, Yahweh, and Allah".

@EdwinMcCravy Do you realise that your post/comment to me makes about as much sense as pouring gasoline on house-fire to put the fire does?

Yes, and it IS merely a Premise since NO-ONE, absolutely NO-ONE can prove conclusively, empirically and irrefutably that ANY Supreme Deity exists or has ever existed.

@Antifred Yes I AM fully aware of those LEGENDARY Heroes of American Folklore BECAUSE ( and this may shock you) We, here in Australia, have HAD Libraries, Cinemas, Television, Radio, Newspapers, etc, etc, and, Yes, even electricity wired into our homes, FLUSHING toilets and all those mod-cons for numerous decades.
We also have our own Heroes, such as the Kingsford -Smith Brothers and Charles Ulm, John Flynn ( Founder of the Royal Flying Doctor Service btw), Ned Kelly, the Aussie Soldiers who fought at Gallipoli, the Aussie Soldiers who fought on the Kokoda Track in New Guinea, etc, etc, BUT we DO NOT proclaim them as being Deities or Semi-Deities as you appear to do. we simply see them as Brave people who defied the odds or the oppressive ways of the Government, etc, at the time BECAUSE it WAS the right thing to do.

@Triphid why do you have to be such a twat? The above post was not only condescending, nasty, spiteful & unnecessary, but also reveals the Huge self-made chip on your shoulder. Too bad, so sad...oh, wait, nobody cares.....

@Gwendolyn2018 Until I was 10 years old we still had an outhouse from which a bloke driving a Sewage Truck would remove the full toilet pan ( big metal bucket) and replace it with an empty one whether you were sitting on the seat or not.
We also had a water boiler fired up with chips of wood so we, all 7 in the family ( 2 Adults, 5 children) could have a hot bath on Saturday Nights.
Actual toilet paper was a Luxury, we used squares of newspaper instead and ALL & of us shared a 3 Bedroomed house, yes we had electricity, but my Father was an Underground Miner in the Silver, Lead and Zinc Mines here in Broken Hill and money was bloody tough to come by and we never knew for certain IF Dad was going to home after his shift or be dead and buried in a rock fall a thousand feet underground.

@AnneWimsey No 'chips on my shoulders ' here Lady, none at all, just setting things right as per 'Antifred's' disparaging, imho, comment.

@Triphid rigggghhhtttttt, "buddy"

@AnneWimsey Definitely No Chips on my shoulders here Ma'am, but I've numerous 'run-ins' with this 'Antifred' character before where I seem to get the impression that he considers us Australians as some kind of Country Hick Yokel Colonials and he also keeps citing the same bible verse/passage over and over repeatedly as well.

@Gwendolyn2018 Nope, 'uptown' in mining town like Broken Hill meant that you had a sewage system, hot and cold running water on tap, REAL toilet paper and your father would come home safe and sound every evening.

Also, you may wish to see IF you can find the Broken Hill Miners Memorial and its lists of men killed in the Mines online.
Well worth the read and quite an eye-opener I might add.

@Triphid I agree with you, in fact he seems to feel we are all worthless stuff stuck to his shoes.....

Well, I'd like to be "pushy" enough to "push" atheists into give up their faith that there is any mental concept for the words "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" to refer to I'm opposed to belief on faith, and I'd like to "push" people to give it up, whether it's faith that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" refer to something existent or something nonexistent. The truth is that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" do not refer period -- not to anything existent, and not to anything nonexistent.

Then how should I present it? Do you think I should pretend that I don't think it takes blind faith to believe that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words? But I do and I'm against blind faith.

@Triphid What "Supreme God" do you think Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in and worship? Can you describe any such "supreme god"? Or can you just assert that they believe in one and talk as if they believed in one? I don't think you know of any mental concept of any "Supreme God" that Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in or worship, any more that I do.

@EdwinMcCravy They, in my educated opinion as a Psychologist, BELIEVE in what they are told they MUST believe in from childhood, whereas, those like myself for example started questioning at an early age, found the 'answers' either somewhat vague or completely unacceptable and discarded the entire belief system in favour of Rationality, Reasoning and Logic Thought.

Why am I making an issue? Because atheists believe "God" (not "god" ), "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words. That takes a faith that they should not have. I lack that faith, and I am considered wrong because I don't have it. It's crazy.

@EdwinMcCravy Dear Edwin, you are not wrong to not have faith in any meaning of god, yahweh and allah. Others are not wrong to attach meaning to those words.All words have the meaning we ascribe to them and for them to even have that meaning there has to be consensus. You state that you are not involved in that consensus. It's okay. That does not make you wrong, you just don't agree. There will probably never be 100% agreement about anything. People who have called you wrong are themselves wrong. You seem to think that because you don't agree you are considered ill-suited to the site. On this site, we are used to disagreements. I suggest you read the 4 Agreements and take #2 to heart. I think most of us don't label you wrong, we are just somewhat offended at the aggressive way you state your beliefs as if daring us to berate you. Not going to happen here.

Hey, that's great that you also do not share the belief with Christians, Jews and Muslims that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words. Does it bother you, as it does me, that atheists hold the belief that those words are meaningful? I think it takes almost as much faith to believe that "God" refers to something nonexistent as it does to believe that "God" refers to something existent.

I would say theological noncognitivism and ignosticism are identical. Unlike atheists, who claim that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" stand for something that does not exist, we don't claim that it means anything at all -- nothing existent (like a horse), and also nothing nonexistent (like a unicorn). We say that "God", "Yahweh", and "Allah" don't mean anything at all. They are just sounds that trigger emotions of awe, fear and reverence in properly indoctrinated people (theists) that make them think they refer to something that's causing them to have those emotions.

@EdwinMcCravy I wouldn't say that it bothers me. I just see it as some hard atheists are trapped in rebellion and don't see past it. Other (soft) atheists do express ignostic thoughts but primarily think of themselves as atheists first and ignostics second...if they are even familiar with the term. One atheist told me he considered ignosticism a form of atheism.

@Heraclitus But it can't be right to say that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words for something nonexistent. I consider that a faith that needs to be gotten rid of, don't you?

@EdwinMcCravy I don't think they are meaningful words. And I think that all faith in the irrational should be gotten rid of.

Why didn't you give a description of the mental concept you claim to have for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" if you believe you know of one? I am not gullible enough to believe that you know of a mental concept for them just because you imply that you can? Sorry, there is no evidence that you know of any concept for them. You're just like me in that respect. You just haven't admitted it to yourself yet.

You seem to be claiming that you are able to have a mental concept for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah". However, nothing in what you wrote shows in the least that you do. I can only believe that you're just like me and can't give any description of any concept for them because you know of none either.

Then what mental concept do you claim to have for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" that you believe Christians, Jews and Muslims use those words to represent? I'm suspicious that you are just like me in that respect and can't conjure up any mental concept for them either. Am I right?

@EdwinMcCravy The only mental concept I would have for a God, of any sort, would be the one that was described to me by another, using words.

Depends on what you men by "usage". Please describe what mental concept you claim to have for "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah".

You'rer right that they don't like my attitude, for my attitude is that they are wrong for thinking that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words for a nonexistent thing. Other theological noncognitivists (and there ARE others!) tell me the same thing about atheists and agnostics. Atheists like to tell the falsehood that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" refers to "a big man in the sky" or "a flying spaghetti monster". Surely they know this is not the case, but they say it anyway. They can't stand for "God" not to stand for a nonexistent thingamajig. But it doesn't refer to anything at all -- nothing existent and nothing nonexistent. But, as simple and obvious as it is, they can't stand to admit that truth to themselves.

@EdwinMcCravy Most atheists in my experience believe most god concepts to be incoherent and therefore meaningless, but that doesn't change the meanings in common use that we are obliged to engage with. Unless you want to cede the marketplace of ideas to others, I think you have to engage them where they are.

Ignosticism and igtheism are other words for what you're describing and I have no issue with what you're saying. But how is what you're saying actionable? How does it inform your interactions?

@mordant You are speaking contradictorily. Why do you think it's OK that atheists believe that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words when you know they are not? Yet you believe I am wrong for saying the truth that they are not meaningful? I don't get what you are saying.

You can't be an atheist or agnostic if you don't believe that "God", "Yahweh" and "Allah" are meaningful words that refer to a nonexistent god, like "unicorn" is a meaningful word that stands for a nonexistent animal. To be an atheist or agnostic, you must have faith that "God" and "Allah" are meaningful words like "unicorn" and "mermaid" and not think they are meaningless random rows of alphabet letters like "Ziggelfoop". I think you are not an atheist or agnostic, but a theological noncognitivist. like it or not. Once you lose faith that "God", and "Allah" are meaningful words for something that doesn't exist, there's no going back. You're stuck as a theological noncognitivist. Sorry!