Can anyone with theology knowledge (or knows someone with) explain this?
As we near Christmas and the nativity story is once again trotted out. I am perplexed by the census part. Okay if you accept god made the universe and all the laws pertaining to it. Then you can accept miracles, Talking snakes, burning bushes, etc. the whole 9 yards.
But the Romans making everyone go back to their birthplace to be counted, come on? Imagine the logistical problems, loss of output, upheaval, for what? Britain had a large empire at one time. Can you imagine us asking everyone in India to do this? The Romans were not dumb, you cannot have an empire that big for that long if you were. God may be able to suspend the laws of physics but not bureaucracy.
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53 comments (26 - 50)
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.SO... yes, it's true that the Romans did have a census (though not the way Matthew portrays), but nobody had to move anywhere.
Historically, the nativity story is incorrect. Matthew, written by a Jewish Christian community (CE 70) in an effort to convert Jews (while not pissing of the Romans), used this story as a way to show off his/her Jewish chops. We also know Herod died four years before Jesus was claimed to have been born, and whatever star the kings were following could not have shown up out of the blue (unless it was a comet as some scholars theorize).
Mark, the most reliable of the gospels, mention nothing of this, nor does John. They both start with Jesus and his baptism of John.
It's mostly probable that Jesus was a disciple of John, which is why the gospels struggled so hard to understand Jesus' relationship with John, in the era of Paul and Christ.
Benthoven
Level 8
Nov 16, 2019
0
During the time of the judges the census was done by the jews themselves, it had nothing to do with Rome. King David actually "displeased" god by doing one which was weird to me since it was common practice before they had a king. If you read the bible cover to cover there are so many contradictions its laughable. God said David only displeased him once when he sent Uriah to die so he could bang his wife but the census pissed god off to so the whole thing is basically a load of crap
Smoke
Level 3
Nov 15, 2019
0
I recommend "God knows" by Joseph Heller. The story of David told in the first person. "How comes I don`t get a book, after all I did for him? God gives that idiot shmuck of a stepson of mine Soloman a book but I get zilch!"
Stop chasing yer tail! Each unknown gospel writer wrote their version of the story & like any good fiction writer they wrote what their group wanted to hear.
The census was a literary device that moved the narrative in the direction that the writer wanted it to go.
Atheist3
Level 7
Nov 14, 2019
1
What I see happening in the comments is exactly the problem the poster is talking about. ... Folks jump on the bandwagon of their already held beliefs and it becomes reinforced. However, had anyone looked at the most basic information available to anyone who uses this site, they would have found the following. From Wiki - "The word is of Latin origin: during the Roman Republic, the census was a list that kept track of all adult males fit for military service. The modern census is essential to international comparisons of any kind of statistics, and censuses collect data on many attributes of a population, not just how many people there are. Censuses typically began as the only method of collecting national demographic data, and are now part of a larger system of different surveys." So, yes, the Romans did perform a census and no, it's not crazy to think they did.
JustAskMe
Level 6
Nov 12, 2019
1
It is not the census itself I have a problem with. It is the requirement of going back to where you were born. It would be massively uprooting and would achieve no purpose. A census is to collect data about the current population, not where they were when born.
@JustAskMe Who cares? Okay firstly let me put my position down. I live in a reasonably secular society and encounter no problems with my non-belief systems. In fact, the only time that I ever talk about them is on here.
Unfortunately, that is not the case for so many of our members. It seems that they have to battle and debate with theists all the time. From what I glean off their posts there is an ongoing struggle to keep the legislature and educational systems of the USA as secular as it should be.
To back up their claims, theists point to the bible as the immutable word of god. "Not one jot or tittle". Therefore such a glaring falsification and inaccuracy as the census provides much-needed ammunition to the debate.
As my post pointed out, it is hard to argue against miracles as they are faith-based but history and common sense government can provide tangible evidence that the gospels are not accurate. That was my motivation for posting
As to "Who cares?" Well, I do not recall ever having as many comments on one of my posts as this one. It has generated so much interest that the comments have gone to 2 pages so far and more keep coming. If I were a points whore, I would be overjoyed.
@273kelvin Hi. I was unable to reply to your reply to my comment. ... You increased the breadth of "who cares" into many other areas than how I meant it. I limited my "who cares?" comment to people of the bible story going back to where they were born to be counted in a census. ... I understand that the non religious are under constant attack, but arguing about minute Biblical details will not make it stop. Why bother with inane silly arguments when one can actually DO SOMETHING?
@273kelvin, @Gwendolyn2018 WOW! Folks are so stuck in their own crap that they have NO IDEA what I'm saying. ... Let me try AGAIN. Hi.You increased the breadth of "who cares" into many other areas than how I meant it. I limited my "who cares?" comment to people of the bible story going back to where they were born to be counted in a census. ... I understand that the non religious are under constant attack, but arguing about minute Biblical details will not make it stop. Why bother with inane silly arguments when one can actually DO SOMETHING?
@Gwendolyn2018 You can't see the forest for the trees. How sad. ... You and all others who want to argue about tiny details contained in "holy" books are not worth my time. However, working for legislation that protect the non religious and bringing about taxation for churches IS. So long! I have more important things to do!
@JustAskMe Good luck and more power to your elbow in the work that you do.
My point was that theists use the bible as an unimpeachable witness. If we can show that it is not so. ie. "Where were you on the night of the 14th?" and the answer is "Watching the ball game" but the witness gets the teams and score wrong. Then our side of the argument holds up the greater.
@Gwendolyn2018 I belong to Democrats of Erath County. ... And I see you're having a hard time letting this go. ... Try again. ...
@273kelvin Sadly, this method has nearly no success. They have "faith" they believe based on nothing so showing them it's wrong has no effect because they will continue to believe it anyway and not listen to you (the devil) who is trying to destroy their faith. ... Honestly, it's just not worth my time until they get political about it and base American law on God (abortion, marriage laws etc.) They have no right to force others to observe their faith.
@Gwendolyn2018 BLOCKED
@273kelvin I also noticed that the number of responses is wonderful Kelvin. I put it down to the simple irrefutable brilliance of your post and thought process. It was that together with the number of responses that attracted me to your thread. And yes I have also found it curious that it is professed atheists and agnostics who argue about religion rather than getting on with life. Perhaps if they are eventually on death confronted with a heaven but denied entry they hope to argue for their admittance by saying "I was only playing devil's advocate!" LMAO
@FrayedBear I am certain "being confronted by heaven" will never happen. And, if you believe in heaven, why are you here?
@JustAskMe Dear oh dear, you do have a problem in understanding me don't you. It is sad that my sarcastic humour is not understood. What makes you think that I believe in xtian heaven or hell? And why are you so arrogantly aggressive?
@FrayedBear How could I know if you are joking? I don't know you and i am only reading your response which lacks tone and rhythm. ... I suppose you added "arrogance and aggression" to my tone for the same reason.
@FrayedBear Although, I really don't believe you were joking and if you were or not your response makes little sense.
@JustAskMe What do you think LMAO means?
@JustAskMe Your problem not mine.
@FrayedBear Eye roll. Blocked.
@FrayedBear Maybe we will go the way of W C Fields on his death bed looking through the bible. "Just trying to find a loophole".
I think it is more like when you watch a fantasy movie and just one small piece of incredulity catches your attention. Like Lord of the Rings and you think "Why did they not just fly Frodo to mount doom on an eagle, to begin with?" Or "if only Thor can pick up his hammer, what if the Hulk picks him up whilst he is holding it?"
@JustAskMe Neither will I or pretty much anyone on this site. However, I was replying to a comment and quoting W C Fields. A man who was famous for saying "Anyone that hates children and animals can't be all bad". Has it got to the stage where every joke now has to be followed by a "lol" or emoji?
Love that last line of your post, btw.
If the God of the Bible possessed all the characteristics claimed, the Bible could be condensed into a pamphlet. God could just pluck up Joseph and pregnant Mary and move them to anywhere in the world. But, No! They had to travel by foot and by donkey for a stupid census that makes no sense.
RussRAB
Level 8
Nov 12, 2019
1
Biblical scholar and New Testament expert Bart Ehrman has said he believes this detail of the story - while most likely false - is evidence that Jesus was a real individual. Why would the creators of this story go to such lengths and create a falsehood to get Jesus' parents from where they lived to Bethlehem where the Massiah had to be born to fulfill prophesy. Of course if this is true, it doesn't make the Jesus of the Bible any more factual, get perhaps legendary rather than mythological.
RussRAB
Level 8
Nov 12, 2019
1
I did a little research and apparently the problem is with the years and manner in which Luke depicted it happening. The census would have required citizens to register in the town where they resided instead of the town of their birth.
Happy_Killbot
Level 7
Nov 11, 2019
1
I am with you and have found this ridiculous for a long time. Why have a tax base somewhere else? It's another example of changing words to fit supposedly scripture. Instead of a virgin giving birth the original wording said a virgin will be married and give birth. Even today, many middle-East cultures demand that a woman be a virgin before marriage (and sometimes showing a bloody sheet to prove). Sick, sick, sick.
JackPedigo
Level 9
Nov 11, 2019
1
I also wondered about that, even as a believer. The inn was full so apparently there were a whole lot of people who had to take these long journeys for a census. And then they never left Bethlehem, they just moved there? It was all very confusing.
UpsideDownAgain
Level 7
Nov 11, 2019
1
Have you ever tried getting a hotel room at Christmas? ;-O
Yes, and also you would put a very pregnant woman on a donkey and lead it 3 days across the mountainous terrain.... the narrative is another example of making up a story to fit some BS prophesy. The funny thing is, most of those “prophesies” aren’t what they are supposed to be.
FlyingGodess
Level 5
Nov 11, 2019
1
It makes sense when you consider that no one really know who wrote the gospels . They were discovered 40 to 100 years after Jesus death and were ascribed as his disciples writings but no one knows for sure. Matthew Mark Luke and John were made up authors of those texts
abyers1970
Level 7
Nov 11, 2019
1
We do, however, have records kept by other nations and the Roman records for the period. Those records were written with great accuracy by regulation and in no way support the biblical narrative.
It's all based on very spurious tales of old, unfortunately they come from the National Enquirer of the day, utter bullshit made up to get readers! 
You know, of all the illogical bits, that one never struck me as quite as crazy as many other portions. I think I assumed that people in that era rarely settled terribly far from their place of birth. The idea of a census for taxation generally didn't strike me as obviously crazy either.
Interesting to learn that there is no historical basis for any of it - can't say I'm all that surprised.
synergy
Level 6
Nov 11, 2019
1
Interesting that the Roman Empire fell after the ascendancy of christianity within it!
Archeus_Lore
Level 7
Nov 13, 2019
0
It was not instantaneous. It was decriminalized in by Rome 313 and became the state religion in 380. Although Romans pull back from Britain in 410 they still had a considerable empire.
Christians believe that their religion took over the Roman empire but the point can be made that it was the other way around. As Rome's military might decreases, then its political influence via the church takes over. The catholic church has a hierarchy that closely resembles that of the Roman army. In that, each leader has 5 immediate subordinates below him. (A system copied by the military and industry the ever since).
I feel blessed that I have no clue as to what you're talking about with a census in Christian mythology.. and based on the comments, I think I'll keep it that way.
FatherOfNyx
Level 7
Nov 12, 2019
0
This is viewed as evidence that the Jesus story was based on a real person and not total fiction. Bart Ehrman believes that if Jesus were a completely fictional character, his birthplace could have been stated to be anywhere that fit the prophecy, but if he had been a real man from Nazareth pretending to be the messiah, there would have to be an excuse to place his mother in Bethlehem at the time he was born.
ADD: This doesn't convince me that Jesus was an actual living person, but it does provoke some thought, and made me more open to that possibility.
JimG
Level 8
Nov 11, 2019
0
Enjoy being online again!
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