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Can someone be intellectually honest about religion without being agnostic? Religions seem to leave out the most important questions humans face or provide incredible or illogical answers. Atheism on the other hand closes the possibility of the existence of a higher reality only because it does not conforms to the current paradigm of the scientific method of corroboration as the only basis for knowledge.

Lacucaracha 4 Dec 17
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36 comments (26 - 36)

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What are “the most important questions humans face”

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I think so. Surely kids taught to believe are not intellectually dishonest, and if they mature in a closed religious society the view that there is not God may seem so ridiculous that it doesn't deserve a second thought. I don't see how they could be dishonest about it if they don't even consider the question. Wasn't this the norm in the Middle Ages?

this comment is wonderful! I had not considered the effect of evolutionary impulse and indoctrination on the question, but I think it's very relevant. We believe what we learned "at mother's knee" for a lot of very complex evolutionary phsychological and biological reasons, and it's not "intellectual dishonesty" that protects those core beliefs, but survival impulse itself.

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Atheism refers only to the belief in a deity. They do not believe that there is a god. After this there is nothing proscribed as to what to believe or not to believe.
One may say that they do not know something is true or that they do not believe that something is true. Only behaving as if there is not a god would be the only requirement of demonstrating one was an atheist. There is no purity test. One may entertain whatever claptrap one may excuse.

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Athiesm closes nothing off. It is the starting point for the discussion of beliefs. If someone makes a claim, you do not automatically assume it to be true. They must have evidence for that claim. If they cannot produce evidence then why should you believe what they are saying is true?

Exactly. But are you warranted in saying that you're sure they're wrong based on the same scenario?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

@Metahuman I am not stating anything about the validity of their claim, I am just withholding belief.

@Metahuman I disagree. I have always disagreed with that statement. For instance the legal definition of evidence is that which makes a proposition of material fact that is a consequence to the determination of the action more or less likely . Two men are placed in a room. After 5 minutes the door is opened and one man is dead. Both men and the room are searched. The absence of a gun in the room is evidence that the man was not killed by a gunshot without even examining the body. In other words the absence of the gun is evidence that the body is absent a gunshot wound.

@mooredolezal you are correct to disagree, his statement is meaningless.

he does not understand it himself, or he would not use it in this situation.

the absence of evidence is not itself evidence of absence, UNLESS such evidence is expected from the claim.

the absence of fingerprints doesn't prove someone didn't enter a room. The absence of powder residue on his arm proves he didn't just fire a gun in short sleeves.

The absence of evidence DEMANDED BY THE CLAIM is evidence of the absence of truth in the claim.

God will protect his believers is a claim made by christianity. But statistically, christians are no safer from ANY worldly harm we can measure. Ergo, the claim is false. The claim demands that christians are safer statistically.

@HereticSin no, it doesn't prove any such thing. Maybe he wrapped Saran wrap around his arms and then took it off, you have no idea.

@Metahuman sometimes I like to add elements to a hypothetical to act like I've proven something, cause I'm clever, hahahhahahahahahhhahhah.

you knew what I meant, I knew what I meant, but you added the saran wrap to prove a non-existent point anyway.

evidence demanded by the claim being absence is proof of the falsehood of the claim, was the point. the rest is rhetoric.

@HereticSin go read Arthur Conan Doyle

The statement that you made last, your last paragraph, could only be true if you knew every fact surrounding every aspect of the reality of the situation and that's not possible therefore, you sir are full of baloney.

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OK, you have a god. What is it for and what does it do? Oh, it protects you and also will save you. What does it protect you from? Your enemies you say. Yes, and it also might save you from your enemies. IC. Does it ever tell you to not piss so many people off?

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i think so. one of my philosophy professors was religious and taught philosophy and religious philosophy studies, i took his classes and he was my academic advisor. he was one of the first people i met where i felt like even though he wasn't agnostic he had a very open minded view of the world and religion. I guess the best way i could put it is, it felt like he was agnostic in the sense that he believed there was a god but at the same time he didnt deny the idea that he could be wrong, just like how many people don't believe in a god but also don't outright say that we know there is no god.

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Ancients gave all credit for whatever they didn't understand to "god" or "gods". The "God of the gaps" is a term I've heard from somewhere. Soon as science provides a logical answer to one of gods mysteries the mystery is solved and no god is needed to satisfy ones longing for an answer. As we continue through science to discover answer to our compelling questions we need less and less "gods" to blame things on.or praise them for.........Praise is really what the gods like from us. Dissension in the ranks brings out the worst in them all.......Haven't had a locust plague hit my town for a while now......Praise Gauwad!

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The scientific method is the only proven method for validating hypotheses and producing function theories on which we base our technology, medicine, and industry.

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Any claim made WITHOUT refutable evidence is merely a claim and nothing more as any Court in a Western Country will tell you.
Christianity, for example, has been repeating the same claim continuously for nigh on 2,000 years and has NEVER produced/brought forward even 1 iota of refutable evidence in favor of the claim.
The Sciences,on the other hand, research, try, test, examine the results, then try and test all over again BEFORE they make a claim PLUS have more than substantial evidences to support the claim.
That is basic difference between Sciences and Religions.
In the last 200+ years Sciences have revealed a great deal and with evidence to back the evidence up that a " Higher Reality/Higher Supreme Deity/God or whatever you wish to call it" has an estimate possibility of 0.00000000000001% of ever having existed except in the fevered, frightened minds of men who were somewhat quite 'primitive' compared to humans today.

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A higher reality? Does not conform to the scientific method of corroboration? The only basis for knowledge? WTF are you talking about? Where the fuck did you get these illogical and ridiculous ideas that you espouse as if they were true?

The idea was to provoke a meaningful discussion and not to hurt your feelings. I hope you find the tools to manage your emotions.

@Lacucaracha and I hope you stop posting ridiculous ideas. Anybody can "provoke discussion" saying stupid shit, example: " Is lacucaracha assuming too much or is lacucaracha just an agent provocateur? discuss." Provoked?

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Your first error: using the word religion to stereotype and categorize things you think are, as most people do, pertaining to this word "religion ".

I no longer consider myself Christian, however since leaving christianity I have come to a lot better understanding of biblical text and still have a lot of appreciation for it.

I often think it would be nice to be able to explain, as in writing a book or making something like some discovery channel videos, about biblical text in the way that I have come to better understand it since leaving christianity.

A large difference is the fact of translated differences between languages.

I will give a couple of examples: ruach in biblical text means force, often expressed like the kinetic energy of breath, wind or a storm. Forces are study by physics and chemistry. Ruach gets translated into English as spirit and sometimes ghost.

There are things that I have experienced about "ruach" that has given me a better understanding but it is almost like trying to explain some supernatural. However, it is also like trying to explain physics to a kindergartener.

Here also is as video I like a lot. At least 97% of it. If you are famuliar with most modern, Christian churchy stories then you would understand the difference between English chruchy stories and this video explination of original language.

There is other things I discuss in my comments and other post that I explain that if Christians or everyone realized biblical text and original Jewish traditional teachings It points to Jesus being Angelic lord of host Lucifer the devil.

This knowledge, if people would understand, could end christianity and Masonic lodge secret religion racist devil worship most commonly known as United States of America.

Word Level 8 Dec 17, 2019
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