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Which is the more disturbing, Russian politics or Islamic fundamentalism

magicwatch 7 Mar 26

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1

American politics and Christian fundamentalism. They have a direct affect on my life. The other two not so much.

4

All kinds of fundamentalism are dangerous. And Russian politics, like all politics, can often verge on religion.
I spend a lot of time with muslims, both here and in West Africa, and my son-in-law is muslim Just like christians, most of them are normal folks going about their lives, and they range from very religious to those who identify culturally as muslim but don't believe the theology.
A few muslims are terrible and almost as dangerous as our homegrown Christian fundamentalist terrorists. But the others range from the highly educated, barely observant family that goes to the mosque only for weddings and funerals, to the folks who pray five times a day.
You can't put all Muslims into one category and say they are or aren't dangerous, any more than you can put all Christians into one category and say they are or aren't dangerous.

I follow Sam Harris. Certainly you can't lump together/condemn individuals who adhere to one particular religion but I think it would be pretty naive to ignore connections to a religion that is churning out terrorists

More people have been killed on US soil by American terrorists than foreign terrorists. Historically, think about the mass murders perpetrated by christians - Naziism, the crusades, the choice of conversion or death that christians gave to millions of people in the countries they colonized. "churning out terrorists" just doesn't fit the facts. Christians have slaughtered far more people than Muslims if you look at any measure.

@Atheisteuse Yes, there's no denying Christian history. It's horrific. I refer often to Sam Harris who clarifies things so well. Borrowing (and maybe butchering) his ideas: Muslim societies today are like the Christians of the dark ages, the time before the enlightenment. There isn't the focus on education or science. There's a focus on religion. Like you, I have many friends that are muslim. I can attest to people being people. I never condemn individuals. And, yes, absolutely, to date, I'd agree the threat in the US is American terrorists. BUT, the poster didn't specify the US. You read it r/t the US and I did not r/t the US. It's at that point that you and I diverge. This is what I see around the world [en.wikipedia.org]

1

American naivete. Americans underestimate the impact of one (Russia meddling in our politics) and the raw determination of the other. I look at what's happening in Europe and how Islam has IMPORTED hatred (of the Jews, of the West) and I'm appalled at how naive Americans are. And, yes, equally disturbing are the white hate groups in the US unleashed by Trump's presidency. With all of this, we have no leadership in the White House. Americans are sitting ducks.

Sadly, Anti semitism has a long long history in europe and certainly wasn't imported by Muslims.

@JimmyM hhhmmmm...many (some?) European countries (notably Germany) had taken a good, long look at antisemitism after WWII and established new ways of viewing their Jewish citizens. When you look at the statistics now...at the heart antisemitism over the last 15-20 years has been Muslim immigrants. It's only since the economic fallout of 2007ish that the neo nazis in Europe have reacted to the growing number of muslims. European countries are becoming hotbeds of hate.

@crazycurlz we were fighting (literally) neo Nazis on the streets in Britain in the 1960's 70's 80's.... etc long before the 2007 economic fall out

@JimmyM they weren't setting off bombs

@crazycurlz yes some of them were and that's kind of my point 'some' of them. In the 80's in Britain some right wingers were targeting gays with bombs. Young Asian women were being subject to horrific attacks etc etc... Nothing new about hate crimes. In England and the North of Ireland there were plenty of shootings and bombings from loosely christian organizations but that doesn't mean that Christianity is inherently a violent belief system which is what you were implying for Islam.
Tbh I'm not a fan of either. 'Buddhists' are killing people in Myanmar. Is Buddhism essentially violent or are a few people doing something and then many people get lumped in with them.

@JimmyM you take a broad view and I appreciate that. As I find voices here I am sure it will expand my view, hopefully yours, too. These issues are so critically important, as a species, for our collective future.

1

Much of a muchness when it comes right down to it. anyone remember Stalin?

I think I've heard of Stalin. πŸ™‚

one evil nasty fucker much like hitler

1

Islamic fundamentalism. Islamic people used to be the pinnacle of society in the sciences and maths until one guy declared that dealing in numbers is bad and made Islam the way it is today. Russia is just a bunch of corrupt people who could probably be easily replaced if given the chance. I’m more scared of good things turning bad so quickly than bad things turning worse.

Adam7 Level 4 Mar 27, 2018

Sorry but can you name the 'one guy' who declared that dealing in numbers is bad. And when he 'made Islam the way it is today' was that shia islam or Sunni?

@JimmyM @Adam7 actually I can name the 'one guy'. I posted a video of Neil deGrasse Tyson discussing this dude's 'contribution'. When I locate the video, I'll carry it over here. Don't be too offended by pointing out that the Arabs are coming out of the medieval period...Europe emerged from one too, every civilization evolves and goes through periods. To pretend these things DIDN'T happen...that's the problem.

@JimmyM 'one guy' is al-ghazali

@crazycurlz his argument falls to shit where he wonders why Muslims havnt won Nobel prizes but Jews have. Completely overlooking how nobel prizes are awarded and by whom. The idea that Islamic cultures or western cultures come to that are single homogeneous entities is far too simple. Or one man denouncing mathematics leads to 9-11 is crazy.

@JimmyM this is just the video in which he names 'one guy'. You have to watch his videos in their entirety to understand Neil degrasse Tyson. he's brilliant. When you look at Arab countries, what do you see? I see small pockets of educated young people struggling against dictatorship countries. I see countries that are coming out of their own medieval period. I see repression of women. I see 24% of the world's population scapegoating Israel, a population that's about 1-2% of the world's population. Don't get me wrong, I have friends that are muslim and christian, arab and kurd, african and middle eastern. Some are educated others not so much. But when a friend from Pakistan told me years ago that being Muslim meant going to war against others, I took him seriously. He was gentle and kind and he would have made me his 2nd wife if I'd been willing to follow him back to Pakistan. He also was trained in the military and his life was in service to Allah. I wonder what your experience is that you know or understand Islamic cultures. I suspect you must be Muslim and can shed some light on the things I've experienced, teach me to see things in a different view. I challenge you to enlighten me with your understanding of the Muslim world, not Muslims as individuals. That's not necessary. I have respect for individuals, a friend is a friend. What you seem to think I need is education as to their governance, their contribution to humanity, their place in the world TODAY. I'd love to have you share your insight.

@crazycurlz I would agree that he’s brilliant, but he does have a tendency to repeat arguments almost word for word in different talks he gives, not that none of them are dumb

@Adam7 lol I guess I like repetition. πŸ™‚ I also like his delivery. He's comfortable with himself and seems so real/approachable

From where did the Moors get their mathematics. (Note. they were Moors, not Arabs.) The ideas came from India, some via Greece, and from Greece itself, and some from other European countries, who lost it during the so-called "Dark Ages". The early Moorish followers of Islam (Muslims if you like) valued research and discovery. Think of words like algebra and algorithm in maths, or alkali in chemistry. They carried their knowledge to Spain, from where it spread back to Northern Europe during the renaissance (re-birth of knowledge) It was when the Islamic world had a serious schism and split into vying factions that education for women suffered. Here's a question. What do you think of the Aga Khan? He is the spiritual leader of the Ismaili community, which split from main-stream Islam,

0

I think I would have to go with Russians! They are smart and know how to use their intelligence for harm in the very cleverest and ugliest ways...with no regret! I do not trust Russians...Islam fundamentialism has a lot of ignorance in it, and some sects do blow themselves up for the cause! But, they don't routinely undermine countries and poison people as the Russians oligarchs do and then play victims when confronted! Then promote that victimization to their fellow citizens!

the Russians can't be that smart if they use nerve gas that is easily traced back to the Kremlin to kill someone. sounds to me like they are kind of stupid if that is how they do things.

@jorj I would say the oligarchs (who knows about what the people know... everything is carefully controlled) have no conscious...that particular nerve gas was not to ever be used, is what I read! Watching Putin over the years...I believe that he is very possibly, a 'for real' evil person. And, I hardly ever say that about a person! If you notice, his face only has one expression! Notice his eyes, they seem to have nothing behind them! He seems to be a tightly wound-up pkg! Lol. I have seen evil up close, and I don't trust Putin! I often wonder what he will look like as an old man?

@Freedompath I have mixed feling about Putin. I respect him for some things and think he is crazy for others. I think the nerve gas was nothing more than a false flag. Putin is part of the oligarchs and they would never allowed that gas to be used so that the finger could be pointed to them when they could have just put a bullet in the guy.

@jorj that is odd...but they have a history of poisoning people, one way or the other! I read an article from the UK, that noted Russia is the only place this gas is found...the Russians developed it!

@Freedompath and u believe the Russians would leave a guaranteed marker that it was them? u do know even the CIA has programs to hack anything and leave behind Russian fingerprints to frame them with, don't u? i don't know what happened but i don't believe the corporate media cuz i know their motives.

@jorj I got this from a report out of the UK...the Russians are the only people who has ever had this gas! There was even some connection to Syrian and Russians supplying gas to Assad! This was reported from the UK intelligence people! I believe ligimate reporting. If I could store all that I read and pull it up and share it, I would, but I have not learned to do that yet! Also, I may misspell words, as it is getting harder and harder to spell, lately! And my phone spell-ck is Samsung, and it can't spell, either! Lol

@jorj the report said the Russians developed this gas and the only people that have it...it is DEADLY! Who else would want it? They had agreed to never use it...that is what the UK intell. Reported!

@Freedompath we have no proof gas was even used much less which kind. all we got is their word on it and i trust them about as much as the CIA and WMD in Iraq cuz they pushed that too. i could be wrong but even Im smart to know the Russians wouldnt have used something so easy to trace back to them, esp when there are numerous other ways to kill. sounds to me like a double agent got killed to frame Russia. the same as the DNC push Russia hacked them even tho they won't release any proof of it and still refuse to give proof as BuzzFeed is suing them for it. just take our word, we would never lie is how it works. common sense debunks the Russian gas story.

@Freedompath ive seen the reports too but i still don't believe them

@jorj then, it is going to be difficult trying to get good information your way! I am not into conspiracy theories! I cannot believe something that does not make good sense and does not have the 'ring of truth' to it! Even then, I am always watching for new information to back up or alter what i have already learned! That is the only way, that I know to come as close as possible to the truth! This will never be the perfect truth, but you will have a workable truth, using this method! Now, if you have something that works better for you, then go for it.

@jorj aren't I about twice your age? I have studied and followed the Russians for years and I can assure you, the Russians got the gas to those 2 people in the UK! This has been their MO, for as far back as I can remember! You don't have to believe me, you can do your own research!

@Freedompath u were taught to hate the USSR where as Russia hasnt been the USSR in 30+ years. and u are believing the same bunch that pushed the WMD story with Bush and the CIA so if that is credible to you then go for it. im a skeptic on almost all things until im shown reason to believe it and this gas thing is just a false flag at this point just like the russian hacking the dnc. it takes EVIDENCE in a court to be credible IMO. sorry but younger generations are not sold on the Red Scare and the only reason it works is because younger generations don't tune in to politics because it isnt important to them. funny that the Russians were trusted enough to buy uranium from us but now after the election they are Soviet Russia again.

@jorj maybe, I need to ask where do you get your information from? You must have sources that you trust to give you facts and not opinions? Sometimes, people with opinions have not heard all the facts. I try and base my findings on facts and hopefully from several different reliable sources. Usually, just one, may not have all the information.

@Freedompath Reuters, AP, Bloomberg, TYT, FOX, CNN, MSNBC, Jimmy Dore, Kyle Kulinski, HA Goodman, Styxhexenhammer, Ben Shapiro, NY Times, Washington Post...etc. i read any and all sources and watch many youtube news channels. I don't have one source. I take the info they all give and then use my own thought process to see what they all say is fact and eliminate all the opinion stuff. After that i ask myself just common sense questions. My goal was to be in politics and just need about 12 hours to graduate with Political Science Major with Pre-Law Minor. This stuff is my hobby and passion.

@Freedompath Im open to any source out there, I don't trust any of them much tho.

@Freedompath Honestly the only source i trust 100% is wikileaks because nothing they have ever released has been proven to be false.

@jorj I was not taught anything. I seek out information from reliable sources. I have never been taught to hate Russia...actually, I do not hate and I would stay away from sources that would want me to hate! I don't even have one friend that hates! I choose my friends carefully, just like my information sources! I don't hate Russia, I am very fearful of Russia!

@Freedompath i was just referring to how the Red Scare has been used during your younger days and how my younger days it was a whole new world. guess it came out as you but i was referring to the times and how society was.

@jorj as far back as i.can remember, I was an independent thinker...I only examine facts..., other people's opinions are THEIR perception, of reality.

@jorj Wikileaks...is only releasing stolen data...which that data itself. cannot hold all truth, can be flawed.

@jorj ...if you can't trust any of them much, then you want be able to put together a halfway truthful picture of what is taking place?

@jorj well, good luck with that, it wold be helpful, to have a few other hobbies too! Our brain needs other interest to help increase it's capacity! Our emotional wellbeing, is a major factor, toward our happiness.

@Freedompath Gulf of Tonkin, WMD in Iraq, etc come from the intel community so i take what any of them say skeptically, and if wikileaks had released wrong information you would see Podesta, Hillary, and the DNC disproving it. Fact is, everyone loved them when they leaked on Bush, but once they leaked on Hillary they were labeled Russians.

i do have other hobbies and talk politics mostly online so it don't cause me any problems in real life.

@jorj that is important! Our hobbies, are created out of who we really are! They help keep us connected to our 'real' nature. When we can be our real self, we make a bether way for ourself out in the world. Good luck

5

Currently I feel American capitalism is the most disturbing of all.

1

Islamic fundamentalism

0

Disturbing in what way? I mean in regards to what?

0
0

Both are disturbing, but Russia is more dangerous. Russia has been our dangerous adversary for over 70 years -- both as a communist nation, and as an ultra-nationalstic aggressor with an inferiority complex. Due to their culture and the totalitarian control of Putin and his ilk, Ruswsia will remain our most serious adversary for many years to come.

Today's young people don't remember how the Russians made slave states out of all of eastern Europe, formented revolutions all over the world, and often threatned the start of World War III.I remember: Iwas in Berlin when the wall sent up.

It probably didn't help that immediately following the revolution pretty much all of Europe attacked them and forced them to become a militaristic state that inevitably fell into the hands of a totalitarian when they needed to focus on building the internal systems that could have led to a stable government. I'm not a Russian communist apologist but I think it's unfair to paint a one sided picture like that. Saying "communist" Russia was actually communist is about like saying America is a democracy not ruled by oligarchs. In the end they both seem to be having pretty much the same fate. In my opinion all things need to evolve, take what's good and mix it with what else works and get rid of what doesn't. The fact that the US and the USSR spent so much time having a pissing contest instead of working together has led them both to be pretty much corrupt failed states run by oligarchs living in the 20th century as they try and stifle new ideas on how the world should work for fear of losing power and watching the world pass them by.

3

I don't think that we have to look passed our own politics to be disturbed..
Maybe we should focus on us..

agree and yet, we don't live in a vacuum

0

Russian politics, no question imo.

marga Level 7 Mar 26, 2018
4

I was in Israel for 6 weeks and went into Palestine, Jordan and the four Holy Cities. The Muslims are not as bad as you would think and the Palestinians are a pain in the ass more than a threat. If you were being treated the way that the Jews are treating them you wouldn't just stand there and take it. Ossama Bin Laden didn't cause 9-11 and the European World knows this as well as the whole Middle East. This is a story yet to be fully told, but I can tell you for the most part the Muslims are not what they have painted them up to be.

You're a cherry picker. You go out in this world, with it's incredibly vast array of thoughts and ideas and acknowledge only those things that suit your narrow world view. The muslims as individuals, sure they are people so there are good and bad muslims, as there are good and bad jews, christians, nonbelievers, etc. But, muslims as a whole are walking right out of the dark ages. Not one democracy in all the many arab countries. Look at what's happening in Europe with the growing arab populations. The Arabs didn't leave their hatred of Israel and the West at home. The lunatics brought their hate with them. And as far as how the Israelis treat the Palestinians? You gotta be kidding. Palestinians are represented in the Knesset, the ruling body of Israel. The Arab tribes don't treat one another that well, don't trust one another, they certainly haven't embraced the Palestinians. You have an anti Jewish bias and I'm calling you out. To use your own words, I'm not just going to stand here and take it. Get some education, expand your world view.

@crazycurlz They are building walls all over Israel, Checkpoints galore, and having armed Israeli Soldiers go into peoples houses, shooting children in the face. Same thing is happening over here. Want to go to Pipeline where they were shooting un armed Native Americans in the face with rifles so they can build an Oil Pipeline. OOH and did you see how many Blacks are being deported as undesirable. OOH and who bombed these people from Iraq, Syria, and Gaza so that they have no place to go. Yes their Cities are totally destroyed and they are left to roaming the world with no where to live, sleep or go to school and half of their families dead or crippled. OOH and where else do they want to build a wall next to keep people out and are rounding up innocent persons who have been living peacefully for the past decades, some of whom fought for your country.
Umm let me see who else did this back in the 1940's.
You seem to be very well read but have you ever gone over or do you just thing that by sitting in front of your TV or reading whatever they tell you in the Newspapers makes you an authority. Pack a bag and when you get to Jerusalem spend a week in the Old City and then let us know how full your cherry basket is.

@crazycurlz pretty much everything you've said could be thrown back at you. Especially the bit about having a narrow world view

@Nevermind345 @JimmyM bullshit. Nevermind, you're going as a visitor. I have relatives in Israel, in Britain, in Canada, in Greece. Antisemitism is bullshit. Blaming Israel for the world's ills is bullshit. Comparing Israel to Nazi Germany is propoganda. Israel has to get rid of Netanyahu no doubt and start seeing itself with friends in the world because a lot of people recognize that the jews in Israel and other places contribute a lot to quality of life for people around the world. I don't think ARGUING with either of you while be worth my while. Sometimes a gal just has to walk away from a fruitless argument. Now that I've got my gutteral response out of the way, here's my intellectual response...

All over the world, the ordinary people are basically welcoming and peaceful - unless provoked, obviously. I grew up in Kenya, a racially and religiously mixed society. Not just the Abrahamic sects, either, All these different religions co-existed peacefully, to the extent of inviting others to their temples, gurdwaras, mosques, churches, etc. They respected anyone who was "good".

@Petter Have to walk the walk to talk the talk. I'm not Israeli or Palestinian or Jordanian for that matter but went as an open minded person who found all he needed to know. That there are two sides to every conversation and I heard them both.

4

I've never really seen it all that disturbing from either. We got our own style of oligarchy here like the Russians and our own Islamic fundamentalist would be the Christian fundamentalists. I'm more disturbed by our own country and politics than I am anyone else at this particular time.

jorj Level 8 Mar 26, 2018
2

Both are equally disturbing, and lethal.

9

Much more worried about the piece of shit in the White House and what he is trying to do to the US and possibility of nuclear war with North Korea.

North Korea isn't scary, but 45 can start anything, anytime on his morning twitters while he's on the shi#$ter. You have absolutely no idea what is going to come out of his mouth or to whom he thinks he is upstaging. He is a total uncontrollable little baby who will say anything to anyone just to piss them off and get the attention he so craves.

he is a piece of shit too.....whoa, it is terrible what is happening. Not just him either, it's the whole White House. OMG.....I would never want to be young again, what are the kids gonna have???

@Nevermind345 That's why North Korea is scary - Trump is a petulant chilld and Kim Jong-un knows he can provoke him into a full-scale, toy-throwing tantrum.

@FlyingEagle1952 the kids are gonna have to pay for the mistakes of the generation before them because the boomers chose to vote crooks in over and over. They had a decent wage for their day because of FDR's New Deal so they tuned out and they chose to remain uninformed and allow the country to be sold to the highest bidders. now they want to blame the young people for problems of today because they are retired and worried about the Social Security and medical care that is on the chopping block thanks to their own incumbent politicians being corrupt.

6

Any fundamentalism.

5

For me it is Islamic fundamentalism because it has a wider appeal. Russian politics are more limited geographically and philosophically. Actually, Christian fundamentalism scares me almost as much as either of these.

12

Both. Let's not forget Christian fundamentalists as well since they are the biggest threat in America than anything or anyone.

good call on that one.

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