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Is 'god' an impersonal force of nature, a 'universal consciousness' similar in quality to other natural physical laws, like electromagnetism or the speed of light?
As such, would it not amount to a 'governing principle' describing and limiting the extent of our freedom of thought and action, much like, say, gravity or heat limit what our physical bodies can do, beyond which it encounters resistance?
If so, did men and women then give human thoughts, feelings, and motives to something which is purely impersonal?
Many scientists now believe something like this could be true.[mindmatters.ai]

Storm1752 8 Dec 23
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43 comments

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2

We’ve known for quite some time that the universal forces of nature are without conscience and are simply reactions to each other.

Nardi Level 7 Dec 23, 2019
2

I believe the typical definition and understanding of 'god' (or 'God' ) isn't impersonal. From my belief and understanding, describing the phenomenon you mention as 'god' lend itself to misunderstandings of what is being discussed. Einstein would refer to God when talking about natural phenomenon and those who understood God differently would claim Einstein to be religious like themselves. I would think we would be better off avoiding the term God in favor of other descriptions - 'natural physical laws', 'governing principles', etc.

In terms of humans personifying the inanimate and nonpersonal, I believe it is clear that humans tend to naturally think in think in this way. We are a pattern seeking species and we will find patterns where none exist. We will also find faces from random patterns. This phenomenon is apparently something we do from an early age since infants are attracted to faces more than other patterns and shapes.

3

The basics on god is that god is myth. Thousands of years ago the god idea explained things to a lot of people. Today it is nonsense.

3

Unless you can prove consciousness amongst those physics, then all you've got is another projection by humans onto the universe and calling it god. Not real scientists but pseudo scientists might go on about this stuff.

2

What you describe I would be more inclined to call "Mother Nature", before I called it "God". But I'm not even inclined to go that far.

3

This come across similar to the following:
This rock rolled down the hill. Did something make it roll down the hill? Gravity! Did gravity intend to make it roll down the hill? If so, gravity must be a god. facepalm

0

test everything, and keep what is good yeh

1

Is what...?

sorry, that's as far as I got.

1

Then explain why there is no objective evidence for a god?

2

Not any scientists I am familiar with.

The article:[mindmatters.ai]

@Storm1752 LOTTA wooo.... and quantifiers in every single sentence! Not exactly definitive science.......

Mind Mattets Podcasts are produced by a marketing organization known as Morris Creative Services, which is a subsidiary of a larger marketing organization known as, the Quad Organization.

The Mind Matters Podcast features discussions with leaders in the fields of psychology, education, and beyond, with an emphasis on gifted/talented and 2e (twice-exceptional) children and adults. Mind Matters explores parenting, counseling techniques, and best practices for enriching the lives of high-ability people.

I could not find any info on what their criteria for acceptance of research material. Their podcasts are well linked and associated with many well known and established sites.

@Storm1752

The scientists and periodicals in which they published are pretty obscure. They represent an incredibly small contingent of researchers in their fields. Doesn't mean they are wrong, but they are not a convincing set of credentials. I followed several links in several of the associated articles, was not impressed.

0

If "it" is simply a force/manifestation of gravity or whatever, why think of "it" as "gawd"????
More importantly, what difference would it make to anyone (assuming we didn't fall off the earth...)

[mindmatters.ai]

1

I hope 'god' is universal consciousness and that we contribute to it in our small way. I think of it as having innate consciousness, like Gaia or the bodily (motor) intelligence of a human being. I think it is impersonal, having a way about it that works and we can fall in with it or not as we please.

3

The is evidence for electromagnetism and the speed of light. There is none for god.

Here's the article:[mindmatters.ai]

4

Many scientists? You sound like Trump now...

I'm going by the articles I read.[mindmatters.ai]

2

Without empirical evidence your ‘universal consciousness’ is effectively non-existent. If it existed it would manifest and be known. It might be that we have not progressed enough to describe it, the way people could not understand lightning in the Stone Age. Or nuclear forces until the 20th century. All known forces did manifest themselves even when “science” or natural philosophy did not understand them. The empirical evidence was (and is) there but no one could understand it. Not so with “god”.

Why go all the way to 'universal' consciousness, then? Why not just your OWN consciousness, as a human your self-awareness?
I'm not saying it's 'god,' merely what men CALL it. By doing so they obscure it's true nature by then giving it emotions and feelings, when it's really an impersonal 'energy' which flows through EVERYTHING.
That's the thought, anyway. [mindmatters.ai]

3

I believe that starting the post of with "Is 'god'" makes the rest irrelevant. The exact same queston could have been asked without inserting the "god" word. Such as "Is there a governing principle that describes and limits the human ability to have freedom of thought and action similar to other universal laws like gravity and heat?"

Inserting the concept of god into the question is superfluous as if there is such a governing principle, there is nothing about it that implies a god any more than gravity or heat does.

I was just saying maybe HUMANS called it 'god,' and built religions around it make it comprehensible. But 'it' was simply consciousness itself.
By giving 'it' human characteristics, then, they only obscured it's true nature.
The article: [mindmatters.ai]

@Storm1752 Just to be clear, are you saying the application of the concept of "god" was purposely put on the concept of panpsychism, or universal consciousness? I would say no. They applied it to much simpler concepts like the lightning that started the fire that destroyed their crops one season. I'm hard pressed to believe that they were staring at their navels and came up with the philosophical concept of universal consciousness that included rocks and trees. The article itself discusses it as a new phenomenon and not generally accepted and makes no historic claims that it affected any culture or philosophical thought in the past.

3

“God” is just a label. To say that God did all this is just another way of saying that we don’t understand reality and have no idea what it means.

Yes, Universal Consciousness, if there is such, is a natural phenomenon. Giving a human face to universal consciousness might be justified if you consider individual conscious awareness to be an extension of the universal. In that case God is subjective. Of course thinking of God as having a human-like body is nothing but metaphor.

The article from which I extropolated my admittedly [mindmatters.ai] idea:

1

Physical laws are deduced by observation of natural events. There's no sense in making one up which has no observable effect and calling it 'god'. That's just silly.

Tell that to those people who corrupted the word to the point it's no longer useful as a convenient shorthand for consciousness. When one hears or reads it they automatically think of an "entity" much like a person, except with superhuman powers without limit. This is stupid and ridiculous by today's standards. Yet some people still believe it.
They'd be much better off, of course, building their beliefs systems on the much firmer foundation of observable fact. You and I know this.
But even scientists have to then take the latest factual building blocks and deduce from that new hypotheses on which to base future research. This is how knowledge accumulates.
So what are pure fictional speculations today are tomorrow's facts

2

Anthropormorphism

bobwjr Level 10 Dec 23, 2019
4

Anything could be, but I find that I can maintain peace of mind without depending on unsupported imaginings. If evidence emerges, I will adjust my worldview accordingly.

That said, I have no trouble using religious language metaphorically. I value peace and cooperation over war and discord. This doesn’t come naturally. Xenophobia is adaptive. Seeking consonance with fellow humans is a learned skill. It requires practice.

80% of my fellow humans carry worldviews based on god concepts. I feel no obligation to believe as they believe, but I find great value and meaning in finding ways to interact with them peacefully.

When they use the word ‘god’ I find that if I take it to be a metaphor that personifies the entirety of reality, we can continue in peaceful communication, and no one’s worldview is injured.

Intraspecies conflict is what will be at the root of our extinction.
Getting along with groups larger than 150 is unnatural.
It requires compromise.
Compromise requires practice.

That does not mean all the compromise has to come from my side; there’s plenty to go around. Separation of Church and State is a value I will stand firm on. But that doesn’t require me to call my neighbor an idiot, or insult his worldview. I can just remind him to read the Constitution.

skado Level 9 Dec 23, 2019

As I said, 'god' is a word with too much baggage to be useful, except to describe what reality is NOT.

@Storm1752
I understand the feeling.

2

There are no gods, they have all been created by us humans, ergo, fictional.

1

Invisible deities are imaginary, made up by humans.

As an atheist, I chose rational thought, not magical beliefs.

I feel comfortable with mystery in life. Science is advancing every year.

I totally agree and that's my point exactly.

4

That seems to me to be a contrived, needlessly complex explanation for the rise of religious thought among early people who grappled with things like where the sun went at night and why diseases struck down some people and not others. I don't think these folks who lacked an understanding of heliocentrism and germ theory had developed a framework for natural limits of the universe, a constant speed of light, or some convoluted notion of universal consciousness and applied the "god" label to any of that.

Of course not. They may have just taken what they percieved with their five senses and made sense of it the only way they knew how: through their own very limited understanding...that's why it ended up turning into the convoluted mess we call religion!
Maybe.

0

Maybe it is DOG's thought that is limited, and we humans are the real gods, maybe this speculation is a complete waste of time too.

You got something better to do? I don't, at the moment.

I do, but the world does not rotate around me . . . . you have that right, and if ever you manage to come up with something useful from it, I am all ears.

0

People used to think that thunders were acts of gods. Are the clouds "a governing principle"? Is there one? The natural physical "laws" aren't really laws, are they? They are simply useful ways to describe the world around us. And I believe that initially, when there are unexplained things, we tend to try to explain them to ourselves as best as we could at the time. Hence the belief in the supernatural (which is a bit misleading nomenclature because for those who believe in them, they are "natural." ). This is simply a human-assignment. We see the thunder and we assign it to a god. Sure, we have done that. But that doesn't mean the thunder as any other significance that it didn't have before we made such an assignment.

However, the religions as they have evolved to become are not simply assignment of human thoughts feelings and motives to something pure impersonal (that is, everything non-human, such as clouds, rain, animals, etc). They (religious beliefs) are like viruses, and depending on the social, political and economic environment that they find, and depending upon their own internal adaptability, they survive, florish and evolve, to ultimately fit snuggly into the existing power-structure. They are man-made viruses.

When the various religions are examined historically and contextually within their time frame, they evolve so much and into so many different forms, it is laughable to me when anyone ever suggests that the religions and religious beliefs have any other-independent source than man-made.

I didn't mean to theorize religions accurately depict this purported consciousness--far from it.
Rather, they may be co-opting and misinterpreting the limits that consciousness puts on us. By doing so, they would be only muddling and confusing the issue, because they are speaking out of ignorance.
For instance, why DOES 'god' allow "bad things happen to good people" and vice versa? Why DOESN'T 'he' intercede, answer prayer, etc.?
Because 'god' ISN'T a person, an entity, with human characteristics, but simply that 'thing,' according to this concept, which brings awareness to matter?
If it's true even electrons have this consciousness, maybe the higher up the evolutionary ladder you go, and the more ordered and complex an animated life form becomes, all the way up to animals and humans, the more SELF-aware it becomes.
But maybe that's ALL it does; if so, the only operative 'divine' laws which apply come from how one consciousness interacts with another, like how atoms attract and repel each other depending on their chemical and electromagnetic properties.
So when people erroneously have tried to explain these impersonal interactions in personal terms, they end up rendering the whole complex process meaningless and worse, nonsensical and ridiculous.
That's my idea anyway, though I'm sure I'm poorly expressing it.

@Storm1752 Got it. Makes sense.

@AtheistReader The article from who j I extropolated this train of [mindmatters.ai]:

@Storm1752 It's an interesting idea, but I wouldn't call it science. 🙂 Interesting hypothesis, but I try to check the author's background usually, and this is published by the Walter Bradley Center, whose mission is as follows:

"The mission of the Walter Bradley Center for Natural and Artificial Intelligence at Discovery Institute is to explore the benefits as well as the challenges raised by artificial intelligence (AI) in light of the enduring truth of human exceptionalism."

An enduring truth of human exceptionalism? Hmmmmmm.. This is a part of the Discovery Institute that advocates for... wait for it... the Intelligent Design. Go figure, eh?

[en.wikipedia.org]

@AtheistReader Interesting. It goes to the question of, 'Where did the physical world 'come from?'
I'D say, with my only evidence Newton's Second Law of Thermodynamics, since matter/energy cannot be created or destroyed, it didn't 'come from' anything. It always was and always will be.
How can that be? After all, everything comes from something.
Not true.
Everything just changes form, from matter into energy and back again, depending on other forces acting on, and interacting with, it.
I don't think, then, there is any such thing as intelligent design, because I don't think anything WAS designed.
Ask yourself the question: can you imagine things being any other way?
As far as human "exceptipnalism" is concerned, I personally doubt we are exceptional in any way, but just a next logical step in a process of increasing complexity.
If you ask me, we should be taking a much more active role in accelerating this process, rather than endlessly debating the "morality" of "playing god" and interfering with the "natural way of things."
We ARE "the nature of things!" That's like saying doctors interfere with 'god's,' will by treating patients! Or lifeguards shouldn't save drowning swimmers. Or firemen should let people fry in a burning building...
There is no way to know to what this process could lead. And I'm not talking about horse/human hybrids...

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