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Does anyone else think that the very pillars of religion like original sin, universal forgiveness, eternal life, etc... essentially lay the foundation for terrible behavior?

If I’m told I’m a broken toy to start, and no matter what I do I can be forgiven, why would I exercise any impulse control? Not to mention we have a lifetime of watching people who preach with such vitriol about purported sins get caught red handed doing the very things they’ve vilified.

It’s a strange duality.

WallyWorld 5 Apr 5
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18 comments

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0

Sadly, true.

0

I guess it's possible. In my experience most believers don't take that sort of thing too seriously and I'm not sure if those who act up and explain why in religious terms would be much better behaved had they never heard of God

However as Stephen Weinberg said of religion:
"With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

I couldn't say for certain which of the lessons in our main religions is the most dangerous but surely a contender for the top spot is the story of Abraham sacrificing Isaac? This great Patriarch is held up as an immensely holy man for overriding his own conscience and carrying out an act that he knew should be considered evil but believed he was being devout for carrying out a religious instruction without question.

1

And extreme religious people who refuse medical aid for a child should be charged with murder if the child dies.

I would prefer the laws to be changed to where the child is either taken out of their custody or givn medical treatment against their insane beliefs though.

Are you saying that in the US, urgent medical treatment cannot be given to a child if its parents refuse on religious grounds?

Unbelievable. Do you not have such a thing as a Duty of Care?

@El-loco It is not something that happens routinely but it does happen.

Even kids with life long illness like diabetes being found in late teens weighing maybe 50lbs.

Kids allowed to die of routine illnesses. Untreated ear infections allowed to go untreated until it eats through bone into the brain.

Again, not routine, but not even one child should die a miserable death because a parent is insane.

1

Well fundamentalists will tell you you're broken / unworthy but that they'll mediate forgiveness for you as well as "sanctification" (the theological word for the magical / Christian version of self-improvement, which is supposed to give you a new and improved nature by virtue of your newfound religious faith). And yet, almost schizophrenically, at the same time they tell you that you'll always have this terrible inner struggle between your "old self" and "new self". Because they need you to remain dependent upon them / beholden to them.

So you are never good enough, always sinning "as a dog returneth to its vomit", your righteousness is "as filthy rags" to god, and on and on. It's really a pretty awful belief system, no matter how you look at it.

1

Honestly I don't think about that bullshit at all. I don't see the point.

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The skewed concepts of sin, fogiveness and prayer are some of the reasons I stopped going to my parents church at a very young age. They seem so randomly applied. I do believe in the power of forgiveness, but not as it relates to a god. Forgiving is a form of personal freedom.
When I was still made to attend church, I distincly remember listening (not really) to a sermon and staring at the back wall behind the minister. On it were the words from John 14.6 "I am the way the truth and the light. No man shall see the father, save through me." I think I was about 14 at the time. I remember thinking how strangely territorial that sounded to me. I also distinctly remember around that time, cutting out a haunting picture of an Ethiopian woman and her small child during the famine. They were both skeletal from hunger. I wondered if I was expected to believe that she didn't pray properly to Jesus. Did she love her child any less? Did Jesus not care that they were hungry?
I'm likely not expressing this particularly well, but at that moment I became completely aware of the randomness of it all - that my life was better, not because of any god, but because of the luck of geography. I was born where I was likely never going to know that kind of hunger. I knew then it had nothing to do with sin or forgiveness or prayer - because if it did, then the God in charge was a complete asshole.

MsDee Level 5 Apr 5, 2018

Perfect!

2

Absolutely. The Abrahamic religions are founded on lousy values and appalling concepts (original sin is among the worst).

3

Religion is nothing but a racket that preys on weak minded individuals.

2

The inane doctrine of original sin is one of the things that gave me the most cause to leave religion. I get your point and basically agree.

3

I've always had a hatred toward most phallus-worshipping/women-hating religions.

The sad fact is that most people actually NEED some 'holy' book to tell them it's wrong to fuck their own mother.

But then again, I'm pro-abortion.
???

2

Thats like my parents constantly chastising me with ?god's gonna punish you" before I did anything wrong.

6

There is a quote along the lines of -

If you need the threat of eternal punishment to make you behave like a decent human being, you are not a decent human. You are a psychopath on a short leash.

3

So according to the bible, there is original sin through Adam, and nobody is born innocent, right? I always wondered about babies dying who hadn't had the faculty yet to accept God as their savior. Do they go to hell too? Or do all the "rules" not apply to them and they get an automatic pass according to the religious who cherry pick?

Mark 10:15 "Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."

God is either bullshit, bullshit the way the religious freaks describe him/her/it, religion is bullshit, or God is an evil motherf^cker. If I left anything out, feel free to add to the list lol

My understanding is that children who die before they are baptised go to purgatory.

But, either way,can you imagine telling a woman whose newborn baby has just died that it will go to Hell?

Nice!

@El-loco oh, but wait...if you give the church enough money, your dead child can get out of purgatory....so, silly, religion is really just F.I.N.E. fine.........

2

Which "religion(s)"?

It's not all bad. Ever read the Bhagavad Gita? It's basically a manual for how to be a good person.

"Original sin" is straight up garbage; that one's got to go. (It's the reason I couldn't swallow the Catechism of my youth.)

Other systems teach something like "original goodness". I don't see anything wrong with that.

Other systems teach that God is in everyone, and everything, and is everyone and everything (Sankhya). I'm sure ways can be found to pervert that philosophy, but on the balance I think it's a wholesome, loving idea.

The Jains have "non-absolutism", which is a way of saying "nobody really knows exactly how things are." I think that's healthily humbling and beautiful.

Have you studied a variety of religions? There are some lovely ideas out there.

You're right: the ideas you mentioned do stink. But they're not representative of "religion"--rather, they belong to certain religions.

That’s a fair point. Those pillars aren’t endemic to all religions, just all the ones I’m subjected to on a regular basis. The more far flung religions don’t get a lot of play in Appalachia ?

There are some nice ideas in some belief systems, like karma, which have about the same basis in reality, but don’t seem to actively incite the behavior they pretend to correct.

0

But, but jazas lubes you!

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That is why theists can sin as much as they want in any manner they choose and will just say that god has forgiven them and they get a standing ovation, whereas a non-believer has no one to forgive them and can never be forgiven so is condemed by the theists outright and forever, unless they accept the proper diety to forgive them of course.

If you wrong someone it is THEY to whom you should be asking for forgiveness, not some fictitious third party.

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No matter what any of us do, we're never good enough.
Yeah, they can stuff that bs. I'm not playing that stupid, no-win, game.

2

If your sense of morality revolves around avoiding punishment as opposed to being good to others, you’re just a sociopath in waiting.

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