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This is a world wide pandemic. We look to science for a solution via vaccine.
Many vaccines are being produced, some better than others. By adhering to the basic scientific principals, we should promote the more efficient ones in a holistic way to end this ie cost, storage, efficiency. And then we have politics so my philosophical question to ponder is this;
Should the denial of more effective vaccines to a population for geopolitical reasons be considered biological warfare? A crime if excess deaths occur because of this decision?

This can go both way ie The "West" may refuse "Eastern" and "Eastern" may refuse "Western" to the detriment of their people so it's not a political ideology question.

powder 8 Feb 19

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If there were just a single opportunity to inject just one vaccine, per person, for life ... I'd be of a different opinion. But, a speedy & equitable rollout, of the most practical & efficient vaccine & delivery combination, to the most vulnerable, is a priority. That may determine the choice of vaccine for the rest of us, in each region & health category, for now. As a whole, we will all be benefited (more than by delaying, to implement a more effective, but more difficult to administer, option). Backing-up with a more effective option, could follow.

It may become an annual or semi-annual injection scenario. Then, improved vaccination rollouts, more effective types with less urgent distribution, using specialised refrigeration & transportation, under a regular program, coordinated nationwide, would be expected. Newer technologies may make this less problematic, hopefully soon.


What precisely would YOU deem as being "a holistic approach" when handling a Global Pandemic such as C-19 has proven to be thus far?
Medical Treatments have advanced a very, very long way since the Old and Brutal days of, for example, "That limbs is broken = amputate it," or "that person has been gut-shot = there is nothing to be done so let them die."
These days, Medicine works on a system of basics,

  1. locate, diagnose the causative factors,
  2. TREAT the Cause/s first and foremost,
  3. See to the comfort, well-being, Emotional Stability of the Patient both during and post medical care,
  4. Give any all reassurances necessary to both the Patient and Relatives/Families both during Treatments and Post-Treatments,
  5. Follow up on the Recovery of the Patient when and where ever possible and practicable.

@powder Medicine STRIVES to Cure Diseases, etc, etc, IT works with the Patients it treats.
Economics, etc, are NOT a Holistic Approach to Diseases, they are, imo, the Catch Phrases of Governments who are ONLY concerned with things Fiscal in relation to the Fiscal Budgets of the Country they govern. In other words, " Can we make the National Budget read as being in the "Black," THEY, imo, ARE only concerned with Fiscal Balances and the Economy NOT the Peoples they were ELECTED to Govern and Care FOR in the First and Foremost place.
Then, imo, WE also have those whose ONLY concern seems to be " How can I get around to selling a property of MINE in another country/State and ensure that I make a profit from said Sale."
THIS SIR, IS A GLOBAL Pandemic and it is ONE we have NEVER before experienced on such a scale, ergo, to Treat in a 'Holistic Manner ' IT needs the ENTIRE Human Species to Co-operate completely and Totally as one with NO exceptions NOR exemptions.

@powder I think you ARE 'barking up the wrong tree' here in regards to my reply.
By no means was I suggesting you disregard, etc, etc, your children, etc, I was merely suggesting that ALL Humanity NEEDS to act as ONE in the Pandemic Crisis which are ALLinvolved in WITHOUT Exception or Exemption.


"some better than others." Wrong. They are all different, and affect populations differently. And all provide protection against deep illness, and death.n DUH!


@powder It seems, imo, you are not quite up-to-date as per the recent 'Vaccination Rollout " in Australia which is, to best of my knowledge, has either begun already or DUE to start in March of this year.

@powder Good, BUT as usual we who dwell OUTSIDE of the 'Big Smoke Regions' are scheduled to get the 'Roll-Out" later than than everyone else so it appears.

@powder Apologise, a typo, now corrected.


Well some do refuse the vaccine to others, ie Israel will not vaccinate the Palestinians.

The second part is not true...... It is already happening.

@JacarC Excuse me BUT, IF a Palestinian WORKS in Israel and PAYS taxes to Israel THEN he/she WILL be Vaccinated, BUT those who do NOT do so WILL be last on the Israeli Lists.
Hence, and imo, should this travesty continue, then BOTH Israel and Egypt SHOULD be Charged with Crimes Against Humanity in the
The Israel/Egyptian Blockages STILL stand firm and solid even in these Pandemic times, thus severely limiting/curtailing the availability of C-19 Vaccines to the WHOLE Palestinian Populace.
Then, imo, SHOULD this Israeli-Egyptian Travesty continue on then BOTH countries MUST be Charged with Crimes Against Humanity in the Universal Courts of Justice in the Hague IMMEDIATELY.




The trend has always been that the inhabitants of a country in which an advancement was made benefit from them first. One could argue that until herd immunity is achieved in the country of development, vaccines should not be widely exported, particularly in light of the fact that the costs are borne by the taxpayers. At this point, with supplies far from meeting domestic demand, isn't it more a question of priority as opposed to a premeditated denial?

I think you WILL find, sadly and unfortunately, that this "Herd Immunity" is little more than either a Myth or wishful thinking.

@Triphid What information do you have that contradicts the consensus held by the NIH, CDC, Mayo Clinic and infectious disease experts, worldwide?

@p-nullifidian Well now since humans are animals when it is all boiled down to the basics it IS only logical that this so-called "Herd Immunity" cannot be attained just as for example Drenching Livestock against worm infestations, etc, MUST be repeated over and over EVERY YEAR as each new generation is born and that is just for starters.
Plus, as we have already seen very plainly C-19 is mutating into newer variants ergo the Immunity to Variant 1 may quite well be useless/invalid to Variants 2, 3, 4, etc, etc.

@Triphid Most sources I've read indicate that vaccine-based herd immunity [some prefer 'community immunity'] is possible for COVID 19 when/if between 75-85% of the population has been vaccinated. This number is of course an estimate, but is based on the contagiousness of this virus. Measles is much more contagious so 95% of the community should be vaccinated, according to the CDC. Like measles, a strict and continuous effort may be needed to prevent the re-occurence of outbreaks. I didn't mean to imply that herd immunity won't require future vaccinations or booster shots.

At current rates it could take years for the US to reach 85% against the SAR-CoV-2, which is mutating, as you've said. Presently, while there's evidence to suggest the current vaccines may be less effective against the new strains of the virus, there doesn't appear to be enough evidence to say that a heightened immune system, as a result of the vaccine, won't respond to the variants.

@p-nullifidian 1) to achieve this so-called Herd/Community Immunity then 100% of the Herd/Community needs to vaccinated, which also means that NO other NON Original Herd/Community members can be accepted/enter into that Herd/Community period,
2) Vaccinations, although causing the Immune System to create Antibodies to the specific Infective Agent, need regular Booster Vaccinations to REMAIN Effective, i.e. Tetanus is one example in that it requires a Booster Vaccination every 5 years.


Something to consider , there are new strains of the covid appearing . Although one of the vaccines , may be better than others for one or two strains , it's possible that other vaccines , will be better against different strains . I have taken flue shots for decades , ever since they began providing them , which , of themselves , will not protect me against the Covid versions , but who knows , I may be less likely to catch it , or less likely to have a worst case because of them , if I do get it . I made a point of getting a pneumonia shot update , because I've heard that the worst case covid patients , develop breathing difficulties , and the ventilators are in short demant .


Goes to motive, deliberately withholding medical aid with the intent of causing harm is wrong and on paper at least a violation of treaties on human rights. "Eastern medicine" in America is a euphemism for mystical, if folk medicines are found to be effective we just call it medicine. Asia has plenty of competent physicians and they aren't "Western" doctors.


No because.

One. There is a lot of value in getting as many people done, as quickly as possible, without waiting around to find out which is best, and then getting that one up to maximum production.

Two. A range of sightly different vaccines will make it less likely, that a mutant virus can get round vaccine induced immunity, and get the 'R' number up to above 'one' again, in a post vaccine population.

Three. Some are cheaper and easier to distribute in countries with limited infrastructure, better therefore to get a good one to everyone, than a perfect one, that can only be distributed to rich people in rich countries.

I think that using a range of products, and not just trusting to one, actually counts as 'holistic' though it is not a word I would usually use.

@powder Yep, that is how I am using it.


Don't you think if we only used the "best" one, there would be even more shortages??

The United States shortage can be correctly linked to the refusal to look at the AstraZeneca vaccine. It would instantly solve the supply problem.

@barjoe Isn't that the opposite of what the OP was saying?

@JeffMurray Yep. It got approved in Australia. Lot of bad press on AZOx vax. 30 million jabs, being used in 40 countries. 100% effective against death from Covid. USA and Canada are banning it. $$$ Oxford vaccine is a non profit effort.


Holistic "medicine" is no better than prayer.

That is absolutely untrue. Humans have used a holistic approach to health successfully for our entire career on this planet. You may be confusing holistic with homeopathy. In my view it is conventional healthcare that has gone off the rails. Holistic healthcare deals with maintaining the entire body and taking preventative measures in prophylaxis, rather than the 'modern' method of taking a pharmaceutical treatment for a symptom.

@BDair So if I get cancer, I'm going to see an oncologist not some witchdoctor. Yeah homeopathy won't cure anything. Holistic is a waste of time, curses hypochondria. Once the doctor realizes the patient is really sick, he prescribes real meds.

If you had said "homeopathic 'medicine' is no better than prayer," I would agree.

Holistic medicine though, as I understand it (and someone please do correct me if I'm mistaken,) is more like a "whole person" approach. Like, if you have a stomach ache, the doctor doesn't just prescribe an antacid - she also asks about your diet, and maybe about your physical activity. If she's REALLY into the holistic thing, she may even ask about current psychological stressors that may be contributing to your stomach ache.

I'm of two minds on the question, personally. On the one hand, I realize that health problems may have multiple causes. On the other hand, I don't much like doctors gettin' all up in my business.

@barjoe Conventional cancer treatments kill more people than they save. But a holistic approach to well being can prevent you from getting cancer in the first place.

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