I'm going to discuss being dead for a moment. So at the core without religion having any undue influence on me I believe that there is this human body and then there is this other thing. It's indescribable. I'll label it energy. So when the human body dies what is this energy and what happens to it? My short answer is I don't know and I'd love to find out.
I don't see things in terms of black and white only. Yes, there is black and there is white but there are all colors in between we seem to forget about a lot. Thats true in terms of daily life and afterlife. Who knows what happens? I'm thinking it's probably pretty freaking cool. I see all forms of life having some form of this "energy" and the energy evolving with the creatures evolution. We are the first sentient species on this planet in the universe, in the who knows what? What happens to our energy after we die? It attaches to another target in the next form of evolution I assume. Not only the next one but could attach to a far larger bit of energy further up the evolutionary system. What's important is our energy will seek more energy and continue to grow. It's how life plays out and our consciousness, ie energy, plays a role in that next evolutionary creature. As the creature didn't forget the basics of when it was a simple bacteria, the energy doesn't forget who or what it was as it merges with more energy. We're all energy moving towards more energy. There are exceptions but those are moving towards nothingness, that's not the right flow. Our consciousness or concept of it will not only continue but continue in a way that is beyond our imagination.
As for right and wrong? Same as anyone else. Follow the rules of society, love each other as best we can. Consider the concept of We should always be on a quest to move in a positive way. We all move at whatever speed we move at, it's all in the same direction and that's what's important.
All this "new" stuff (Information) is wild and we all take it at whatever speed we take it. That's how it goes. Why bicker over at what speed we're traveling on the exact same path? I believe there are many speeds or colors to go or be. We all know negative from positive and we all know positive is the way to go. Going negative is dark, it leads to nothing.
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I think death is what it was like before we were borne.
nowhereman55
Level 7
Oct 27, 2022
6
For us, that is what is will be like, sure, but I think the question is what happens to our energy, when we cease to exist in live form. I surely don't know. Perhaps it goes along with us, poof!
@Julie808 What energy?
@nowhereman55 The "indescribable thing" the OP (FvckYOu) is labeling "energy" was the subject of the question asked. I agree with you, but I'm sorry confusing that with suggesting your answer wasn't what the OP was asking. I shouldn't try interacting on this site in the wee hours of the night, when my brain isn't all that functional.
Your belief/opinion of what happens after death does not harm anyone so I certainly have no issue with it whatsoever. Personally, I believe that after we die our consciousness ceases and everything that we were, outside of our organic bodies, ceases to exist. Our "light" goes out and is gone forever and nothing at all comes afterwards.
Charles1971
Level 7
Oct 27, 2022
6
We don't know what happens after we die.
xenoview
Level 8
Oct 26, 2022
6
And, as I said below, why should we really care? If we are certain there is no afterlife, why should we really care?
@TomMcGiverin I care about living the one life I get. I want to live as long as I can.
Yes, and I stated that very clearly. Belief isn't knowing anything. I don't know shit about it. I have ideas and thoughts about it and I shared those. For what purpose? To see what reactions I'd get. I could care less about validation. I'm just interested in how people react.
@barjoe No, you're not wrong in whatever you accept or think or believe or don't believe or however you want to phrase it. Has nothing to do with right or wrong. It's just an opinion. My only point to your comment was that no one knows everything. There isn't a right or wrong in regards to this subject. If there were a right answer chances are we are all probably wrong.
What makes you believe these things? Is it because you’ve observed some evidence, or is it that you hope we have some sort of energy that is perpetuated after death?
Garban
Level 8
Oct 26, 2022
6
It's something I hope for
But it's based upon my own intuitive interpretation of my experience.
@FvckY0u I have family that believe in this sort of thing. They have no dogma, and bow to no earthly authority, they just believe there’s more to come, for both themselves and even beloved pets. They experience sentimental moments when they see blue or yellow butterflies, not necessarily because they think the butterfly was sent by a lost loved one, it just reminds them of the lost love. I don’t think this is necessarily unhealthy, just be careful that you think these things by your own convictions, not because of a charismatic leader.
“I may not agree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
Attributed to Evelyn Beatrice Hall in her biography of Voltaire
"You are a gnostic. Not that there's anything wrong with that." I respectfully disagree .Have you noticed that gnostics are no longer in the ascendency ?Agnostics however ARE in the ascendency.
@Mcflewster I don't judge, I just told it like it is. I'm not an agnostic, I'm an atheist. If someone thinks there's a hereafter, imo they are gnostic, they believe (or hope) there's a deity, they just haven't defined it. I know there is nothing. The only thing I believe from the bible is "ashes to ashes, dust to dust"
I am sure if one actually knew of the energy that left the body upon death the wealthy and the so called religious leaders would find a way to make overtly more profit from it than they do now!!!
of-the-mountain
Level 9
Oct 27, 2022
4
Yet another, "i'm too special to actually be gone" thingy....yawn!
AnneWimsey
Level 9
Oct 27, 2022
4
How do you know you're gone when you die? You know everything? Gone from what we know but if you accept we don't know everything then it opens up a lot to be considered.
@FvckY0u since i actually have died twice, yes, i do know.
(Once by strangulation, first hubby, once from a brain-stem stroke from chiropractic neck manipulation.)
@AnneWimsey I can't argue with experience I don't have.
When you are dead you are dead. Your life is done. Everybody bends over backwards to try and prove an afterlife but it simply cannot be done. Being dead must somehow be sort of like it was before you were born. Let me explain it differently. The dead know nothing and they cannot hurt you. Gangsters and crooks kill each other all the time. If this turned the dead into spirits that knew everything and could interact with the living in any form you would have spirits at war with the living and killing them all the time. Revenge would be a good motive for this. It might make a good book or movie. A comedy maybe, but it does not happen. OK, it happens in the bible but that is not real either. It's not that I want to die. It's just that I have lived long enough to stop making shit up. There is zero evidence for any afterlife. We are not caterpillars or butterflies.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Oct 27, 2022
4
I am sorry to disagree, but I do not think that there is any such thing as death, or any such state as being dead. There is merely life, and when that life ends there is no life, that is all.
Human culture invents many words for things that do not exist, ( Not just dragons and gods. ) in part because of misunderstanding the limited and fudged information our senses send us. Such as dark for example. There is no such thing as dark, only a absence of light, but our senses show us blackness to indicate the absence of light, so our cultures imagine that light must have an opposite, and we name it dark. Likewise cold is not the opposite of heat, but merely its absence, though our senses have evolved to make us avoid places where there is little heat. Because that makes our heat dissipate too fast and that is dangerous to us. So our cultures label our senses instruction with the name "cold", even though heat does not have an opposite. So it is that life does not have an opposite, merely an absence.
We label the absence of life "death" as in part also as a convenient short cut, since it it shorter than saying. "Absence of life and the dissipation of our information content by entropy." But we should not confuse terminology with truth.
Fernapple
Level 9
Oct 27, 2022
4
I've always been fond of thinking in terms that everything has an opposite, but your interpretation of some "opposites" is really just the absence of the other, gets me wondering further. For example, in my mind, matter and space are opposites, or let's say a negative and a positive, or something and nothing.
So using your example, there would be no such thing as "space" it would be the absence of matter. In my mind, the absence of something creates a void or vacuum, which invites or welcomes something to fill it, perhaps in a natural quest for balance or equilibrium.
Just because I'm fond of thinking a certain way doesn't make it true, but it's a way for me to make sense of things in my mind. For me, I like thinking about opposites, and each side having value.
Death is a bit more abstract example, but here are my thoughts or musings, on how death has value, even if not scientifically true:
Let's say there is a human life well lived, and that life dies, which creates a void. There is grief, but we might fill that grief with the positive values, knowledge, wisdom, passions, traditions, purpose, goals, espoused by the departed, taking them in to our own minds, so a part of that human's mark on the world continues on, even though that particular human ceases to exist in live form.
I realize this is perhaps more spiritual than scientific, but we are talking about that which we do not know. This might sound a bit like the way some people think our "light" or "energy" hops from one host to a new host, which is too new agey for me.
So, I don't know a lot about the science of it, but I do know people like to have ways to think about what their death might mean for those they leave behind, and while I do think our life, our light, or spark of life, is extinguished when we cease to exist, I do like to imagine it is re-ignited in those who remember us. Just wishful thinking, but even wishes can have value, at least to my mind.
I do think about what my death will mean for others, and it actually keeps me more on track toward living a good life, setting at least an average or better example for those I have affected in my life. Or perhaps my faults and shortcomings might be the example people will use as in "Don't be like Julie!" it's all good.
I've confused nothing with truth. I've simply stated my theory. Theory or belief isn't truth. You've stated your theory. That's what it is, a theory. Do you know everything there is to know? Of course not. You base your belief or if you prefer, non belief, on what you know and what you observe but you don't know everything nor have you observed everything. Neither have I. It's all conjecture and to me conjecture is fun.
Your position is very appealing from a physics stand point. Not emotionally reassuring, but correct.
@Garban I know, but sadly I am one of those people who think that the search for objective truth has value, and can only be approached when all other complications such as the search for emotional reassurance are put aside. That is not to say that the search for emotional reassurance has no value itself, just that it must come second and fit within the established framework.
And since we know, that even the very best evidence based searches for objective truth, with all the safeguards that science provides, often fall short are beset with pitfalls and usually lead to falsehoods more often than not. Then conjecture without any evidence or method, is at best no more than a fun game, and I do not belittle it as such, but it is no more than a game to amuse the mind in dull moments, I put it aside when thinking about things of practical import like my personal happiness.
If FvckYou gains emotional support from a belief that harms nobody, and is a long way removed from organized religion and its corruptions, then that is great, and if he gains converts from organized religion, then that is a big leap forward. But it is not for me.
@Garban, @FvckY0u Yes there is much to be uncovered, and I have no idea about the higher levels of particle physics, and in that area there is I believe still much scope for conjecture. But the limits of my knowledge extend only to thermodynamics and atomic theory, so I do not go beyond that, since I do not care for conjecture except as game play. See my answer to Garban above.
This stored energy concept, kind of dovetails to physics in regards to energy moving versus being extinguished. That, IMO, does not relate to physical existence. When the body ceases to function then the summation of who we were expires. That's it. I wish it was not the case, but it is. I'm a archaeology fan and that question about after death has been a part of our species from the beginning. These ridiculous dogmas attempt to "explain" and profit off of this question.
A thiest may refuse to accept that, but it doesn't change facts. Statistically, I believe in intelligent life elsewhere. But I do not have facts on my side, so it's a belief. Conversely, I KNOW there is no god. The concept of god is just filler for things not understood and a control mechanism.
We are alone and the only thing we have is between our first and last breaths. Anything else is conjecture driven by ignorance and fear.
BrentMBA2004
Level 6
Oct 27, 2022
2
I agree but I disagree with belief being driving only by ignorance and fear. It's driven by ignorance and a desire to know and understand. Certainly if belief is a hard line that does not and can not change with new information that's bad but if it's just a theory that updates as information is uncovered then it's all good IMO.
If it brings you comfort to speculate on such thing that is all well and good.
If you wish to believe that your cumulative experiences and knowledge will somehow be preserved after your physicality is exhausted, that is fine, I hope that too which is why I write and compose and try and produce something creative every day, to just hope that such knowledge and experience will save itself to me, seem rather lazy.
If you want to believe these things and that faith (make no mistake what you are talking about is Faith, not energy, not spirituality it IS old fashion religious FAITH) helps you cope with life, well fine but be cautious.
Because if you begin to fear, and you grow angry owing to that fear, when people try and put to you other opinions you have a problem, because you have once again become religious. A private and self aware religion, but religious none the less.
If you begin to persecute and hate because of other opinions, and even find yourself abandoning reason in favour of violence and or negativity you have become a crusader, and that is not a compliment, crusaders were and are dangerous people for whom reason has no meaning and facts are no longer truth.
So if you decide to continue on this path, instead of following that which brought you out of religion and the worship of none existent god(s) to its logical conclusion, BE VERY CAREFUL not to become the very thing you dismissed as a bad and negative part of your former life, not worth preserving.
Good luck.
LenHazell53
Level 9
Oct 27, 2022
2
Not comfort, just interesting to me. Certainly belief can be a very dangerous thing. I totally agree.
Energy is the most miss-used term from science. It takes many forms including interaction with mass . But what happens to your energy when you die is the most important Q to you. I would say the simple answer was it fritters away adding to global warming (but not as much as when the body was alive). It will of course be partly involved in the decay process until the body is all dust. Then it blows around and it is conceivable that it will end up giving its tiny chemical energy to another living body along with other chemicals from the earth.
The energy present at death cannot be used to activate any of the electrical nerve signals and hormone initiators that were present in the living Human body. i.e no resurrections.
" the energy doesn't forget who or what it was" Prove it! Remember that to have memory you need a special recording natural device. [We call ours the brain].Insects would have very little memory .{cf Goldfish 15 seconds. }
" We're all energy moving towards more energy" True because we are all moving towards the ultimate of star [ our sun] explosions .
Mcflewster
Level 8
Oct 27, 2022
2
I don't have to prove anything. I've not made any statements of fact.
@FvckY0u Of course you do not have to prove but it helps to keep democracy alive and well. Fact checking is NOT that difficult because we still have lots of trusted sites However if you ever see the number of sites that you can trust getting smaller then I shall get worried . Democracy has to be continually tested for good health. Life needs consistency and dodgy facts are confusing and debilitating.
My daughter believes the foods is the God's. Nobody really knows what happens in the 99% unknowns spiritual world and human kind has not the capacity to know, especially from the distraction of this like matrix system we live in. I'm impressed with your imagination to explore the possibility of energy. It's healthy to use your curiosity too. It's like reaching for the stars and coming back down to earth with something like learning more than did before and to enjoy anyway. .
Castlepaloma
Level 8
Oct 27, 2022
2
right on!
An "intuitive interpretation of experience" is not dissimilar to belief in other supernatural considerations that are devoid of evidential support.
waitingforgodo
Level 8
Oct 27, 2022
1
Yes, devoid of evidential support. I agree. My post is certainly devoid of evidential support. So what? It's still what I think. What do you think? Obviously you think a certain thing and is that thing you think supported by 100% factual evidence? For example, after you die there is nothing that happens? How do you know? Have you already died and experienced whatever or nothing that comes after? Have you evidence of what happens after a person dies? Your perceptions are what they are and they are also potentially what you don't know. What do you know about black holes? How about the strong force? How about a billion other things? You don't know. You have a belief based upon evidence but just because it's based upon evidence doesn't make it true. How much of what we've known throughout all of humanity has been based upon what we know? Everything. Yet we know very little.
"An "intuitive interpretation of experience" is not dissimilar to belief in other supernatural considerations that are devoid of evidential support."
I am sorry but the words of the song do not help me to understand the ' lack of evidence for belief '. Can you help further?
te MF DOOM Verses
Play "On and On"
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Down in Jamaica
They go lots of pretty women
Steal your money
Then they break your heart
Lonesome sue, she's in love with ol' Sam
Take him from the fire into the frying pan
On and on
She just keeps on trying
And she smiles when she feels like crying
On and on, On and on, On and on
Poor ol' Jimmy
Sits alone in the moonlight
Saw his woman kiss another man
So he takes a ladder
Steals the stars from the sky
Puts on Sinatra and starts to cry
On and on
She just keeps on trying
And she smiles when she feels like crying
On and on, On and on, On and on
When the first time is the last time
It can make you feel so bad
But if you know it, show it
Hold on tight
Don't let her say: Goodnight
Got the sun on my shoulders
And my toes in the sand
My woman's left me for the some other man
Aw, but I don't care
I'll just dream and stay tan
Toss up my heart to see where it lands
On and on
I just keep on trying
And I smile when I feel like dying
On and on [Repeat: x9]
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I really see no point in pondering any of that, since we have no power to prevent our dying eventually. It will happen and then I will be gone. The end... No point obsessing over or analyzing it into dust..
TomMcGiverin
Level 8
Oct 26, 2022
2
I laugh because I could ask "Why try to get laid or fall in love?" The answer is obvious, because it interests me.
@FvckY0u Because those things happen, if they do end up happening, happen while you're still alive, with a still-functioning brain, so you can appreciate them? Just a thought, as Beau says....
@TomMcGiverin But belief, in itself, as a personal thing isn't a bad thing. After all, you believe. You believe you die and that's that. Is that the absolute truth? Is it proven that nothing happens beyond that? No, it's not proven, it's a belief just like any other belief. It's not about is yours better than mine, etc. It's just my own personal theory posted to illicit whatever comments I get. I've not read them all but I imagine they'll run the gambit. The truth, if we want to discuss that is simply that whatever happens or doesn't happen is what it is. No matter what anyone believes the truth remains the truth.
@FvckY0u I am so over caring about this topic...
Decades ago, a friend died, and was brought back; and, his personality, memories, capacity for learning, thought processes and concept of self were significantly different.
When I die the self that I am, and my memories (as I've shared them), will be partially conserved in the memories of others who knew me (refected differently from their own perspectives). And, my authored memoirs, videoes, & documented chronologies of events (with references to evidence in annexures), will reflect the essence of my self. But, I will not have capacity for new experiences & thoughts & learning; so, I won't exist.
The essential function of a body, no longer intakes & converts fuel to energy. It is released as a final expiration, evacuation, & release of heat. That's it. As is the consciousness of self, and electrical energy of thought, disengaged & not recharged.
LizZyG
Level 5
Oct 28, 2022
1
My friend's face was not injured, at all ... but his facial expressions & life in his eyes, also changed. He was completely recovered, medically; but not himself, ever again.
In a scientific point of view, we will always be reused.from human form, to plants, to dirt which eventually turns to stone which eventually turns to the soil that grows the plants that feeds the animals. In short, there's no getting rid of me.
Philosophical discussions include epistemological and ontological considerations of the "facts and evidence".
waitingforgodo
Level 8
Oct 28, 2022
0
"So when the human body dies what is this energy and what happens to it? "
Just because you "believe it" doesn't make it true. Just like religion.
There is no extra energy. You die. You are dead. The end.
AtheistInNC
Level 7
Oct 27, 2022
1
Is that proven? Because if that's a proven fact I've yet to see the proof. Imagine when I'm dead I'll find out or I won't. I'd just note this post is in the philosophy and meaning group, not the fact and evidence group.
It's proven every day. People die, they're dead. The end.
I'll just note that this is in the philosophy and meaning group, not the delusions and imagination group.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your claim is extraordinary, therefore YOU need to prove it true, I don't have to prove it false. If you claim you can fly, I don't have to prove you can't. Defenestration through the 3rd story window would be considered murder ... but if you could fly, and you didn't ... I guess it would be labeled suicide, huh?
You claim "there is this other thing - I'll call it energy", yet you haven't measured it or shown it exists other than in your delusional mind. Like religion, I'll believe it when proof has been offered that is peer reviewed and can be repeated.
If you claim something exists, yet offer no proof, it doesn't exist. Q.E.D.
@AtheistInNC I've made no extraordinary claims. I've expressed my opinion. That's far from an extraordinary claim that I consider whether something may exist where we not see any evidence? Do you not recognize that people have a thing called intuition and it's something not to be totally ignored? I did put references into the OP as to intuition without specifically calling it that.
You need to go back and read what you wrote, since obviously you don't remember the extraordinary claim you made. Here, I'll post it for you:
"I believe that there is this human body and then there is this other thing. It's indescribable. I'll label it energy. "
Your extraordinary claim: "...then there is this other thing. It's indescribable. I'll label it energy. "
So, the rest of your blah blah blah in your previous note is meaningless.
So I'll reiterate: Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Until you kindly provide extraordinary evidence, please don't continue to blah blah blah because it's meaningless, and it doesn't look good from someone who tells others that they are intelligent.
Provide evidence, or shut up. Thanks.
@AtheistInNC It's not a claim, it's a belief as I CLEARLY stated. Sort yourself out and understand basic English first and foremost.
claim - an assertion of something as a fact
belief - something believed; an opinion or conviction
Well, for someone who thinks they are so smart, you should be able to see that both "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" and "Extraordinary beliefs require extraordinary evidence" are equivalent.
But, it seems you like things put into the lowest common denominator so you can understand the concept, so read slowly ...
If you "believe" something, and you are trying to convince others to believe it ...
... and that belief is something extraordinary and has no proof ...
... then YOU are the one who has to prove it is true, exists, etc., not vice versa.
Q.E.D. Prove your "energy" exists, or you are just spewing anal drivel.
I have read that scientists measuring the weight of a human body (before and after death) can't account for a small amount of weight. My theory is that we are an electron, bound magnetically to other electrons, so my attempts to 'splain death starts with that. When our electron (soul) changes polarity it disconnects from the bonding and we call that death. Therefore, I'd have to say that the missing weight is the electron (which returns to Tao). I also think that quantum physics will demonstrate this, one day, so it's scientific. My theory states that all, except the electron, is an illusion (this includes our body) so it ends when we "die." Our body remains in the vibration still created by other electrons bound together (which attempt to make sense of particle data, like our body).
rainmanjr
Level 8
Oct 27, 2022
1
You are doing a great job of explaining, theory formation and hypothesis generation. You are in the right place to do that because we all do not know something. However anything spiritual has one great concept buried inside it " UNKNOWN OR UNKNOWABLE. Its first use was for things that go bump in the night.
Mcflewster
Level 8
Oct 27, 2022
1
Right, I could of used the term "?" instead of energy. Energy was the best available term to me. it's all unknown and at least at this point unknowable. Speculating is fun for me.
@FvckY0u Scientists have tried using a symbol for a name and it does not work . For example X-rays were given that name but the nature of the rays are not revealed by an X . Does your nickname say anything about you that is helpful?You do not have to answer that question as far as I am concerned
@Mcflewster It says a lot when we can't even put a word or symbol to something because we don't understand it well enough. Kind of says it all, doesn't it?
@FvckY0u Of course it is possible to give symbol, or a pencil box can be called Herby , as a name and there is nothing to stop anyone. It is just that understanding whatever you are naming can be greatly enhanced with a little thought. I am thinking thoughts about your name which I know cannot be true. Please don't ask.
@Mcflewster As for my nickname on this site, it can be construed several ways and is. It's one of those things that most people will take a certain way but it's meant in a different way. That's the point. Maybe the name feeds an existing stereotype or maybe it breaks one. That's for everyone to decide on their own. Words have meanings but those meanings can and do change over time.
@FvckY0u Fair enough !
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