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What do you think of this idea:
Any "ideology" (in the broadest sense) that fulfills the following four functions can be called a religion: it provides

  • Meaning (Why is the world /life the way it is? what is it all about?);
  • Purpose (what in my place in this world ? What do I have to do to have a menaingful life?);
  • Community (which are my people, and what connects us?);
  • Rituals (what do we do together to strengthen and celebrate this community?)

The point is that many "Nones" would also meet all four points, including many atheists, so religion in postmodernity is no longer tied to ideas like God or an afterlife

(based on the book Strange Rites by Tara Isabella Burton

Thibaud70 7 Mar 19
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One cannot do a study to compare a belief system to another one and call them both religions unless you detail the tenets of those belief systems. These are the statements which you MUST believe in to belong to that religion. Without agreeing to them all, you could be kicked out of that religion as a Heretic. I agree that the four functions are common to many religion but for example some religions have few rituals. Cults have what we would think of as very odd "meaning and purpose.

There are religions without (or with very few) tenets and dogmas. Hinduism is one example. In these religions rituals and practices are much more important than beliefs.
Orthopraxie is more important than orthodoxy

@Thibaud70 We cannot argue someone out of the power of influencing others by criticising a ritual . Rituals can be explained by many fantastical reasons. We can however ask that no one is influenced by a belief expressed as a tenant sworn in a ceremony of membership

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Meaning; Nature's laws is the only so called religion I can mostly understand. Bio organisms and individualism finds better meanings. Centroism has very little meaning to me.
Purpose- I've alway set and sacrifice my purpose in life as I go along,
Community I love science and critical thinking which some are great at here Although many here have influenced by political and corporationism science guiding them. Artist are my strongest tribe.
Rituals- My strength is not in words, being here helps my visual pictures and creative concepts for greater expression in my sculpture works. Agnostic.com are very hard critic's . I get too many compliments on the physical outside world, yet learn less from it.

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I’m a little late to this, but I am not much of a fan of the “Nones” categorization. First off it’s one of those privative catch-all terms like “invertebrate”. Knowing an animal is excluded from the vertebrate group doesn’t yield much information as invertebrates are a disparate group.

The key lacking with “nones” is formal religious affiliation. I recall atheists locking on to this category with glee. Yet: “However, a new survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, conducted jointly with the PBS television program Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, finds that many of the country’s 46 million unaffiliated adults are religious or spiritual in some way. Two-thirds of them say they believe in God (68%). More than half say they often feel a deep connection with nature and the earth (58%), while more than a third classify themselves as “spiritual” but not “religious” (37%), and one-in-five (21%) say they pray every day. In addition, most religiously unaffiliated Americans think that churches and other religious institutions benefit society by strengthening community bonds and aiding the poor.

With few exceptions, though, the unaffiliated say they are not looking for a religion that would be right for them. Overwhelmingly, they think that religious organizations are too concerned with money and power, too focused on rules and too involved in politics.”

[pewresearch.org]

Probably a bit out of date. A majority believed then in God. A large subset were still “spiritual”.

The lack of affiliation itself might be a trend, along the lines of Putnam’s “bowling alone” notion. People seem to disaffiliate from formal political parties but are still politically minded.

It’s your binding of ideology and religion that’s kinda troubling in itself. Seems a subtle way to brand “the woke” or SJWs as religious, a tactic I’ve seen used by the antiwoke. Since just about any social media discussion winds up sucked into that moral panic tractor beam framing any more, it sure seems where this is headed.

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A quote from the book:
"It’s the story of how more and more Americans—and particularly how more and more millennials—envision themselves as creators of their own bespoke religions, mixing and matching spiritual and aesthetic and experiential and philosophical traditions. The Remixed hunger for the same things human beings have always longed for: a sense of meaning in the world and personal purpose within that meaning, a community to share that experience with, and rituals to bring the power of that experience into achievable, everyday life. "

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No. I would not say that none is a religion, because I would add another point to the list of things that you need before you can claim something as a religion. And that is that to be a religion, something has to make a claim of authority. ( Though it is true that the authority does not have to come from a god.)

Which since getting nones to agree, has often been described as herding cats, "none" clearly does not make claims to have an authority. And I am sure that many other people could think of many other criteria to add to the list. So this is a case of T. I. Burton, making your list of evidence required, to fit your intended outcome.

My post does not claim that "None" is a religion, only that many of those you answer "none" when asked about their religion, can have one nevertheless, even if it does not feature on the list of traditional religions. Marxism is one example. Tara Isabella Burton mentions also "Social Justice Movement" or "transhumanism".

And authority is a pretty weak precondition / aspect of / for religions, considering that authority is found literally _every_where: at work, in sports, in the arts, in science, in politics .... really everywhere.

@Thibaud70 Yes very true. Authority can be found in many places, but I would go beyond that and say that justifiable authority is not religion. But that the use of unjustifiable authority is almost entirely the one main defining quality of religion. So much so that I am happy to define religion as an exact synonym for the "proof by authority" fallacy. So that respect for tradition is a religion for example.

So yes, Nones can be taken in by religions too, whether they be Marxism, sports teams, belief in alternate truths, such as artistic truth, pseudo-science or nationalism, etc. etc.

@Fernapple Of course you can include your focus on authority in the list, if you like - although I'd say that there some religions where authority plays only a little role, in many Protestant sects for example, where every believer is his own priest and has his /her own special connection to God, not mediated by some kind of spiritual authority.
Shinto too comes to my mind: it's all about rituals and sacred places, no Scripture, no dogmas.

@Thibaud70 Yes true, although Protestants respect the authority of the Bible, often to an extreme degree, so that falls within the authority definition. While Shinto is hardly a religion, just a set of cultural practices, but is also basically about tradition and ancestral authority, tradition, or sometimes called "Peer pressure from the dead." So I think that they really support my case.

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The syllogism falls at the final hurdle ie. it is a non sequitur.

  1. Many ideologies are religions because they entail meaning, purpose, community and ritual.

  2. Many who are unaffiliated to religion also seek meaning, purpose, community and ritual.

  3. Therefore religion does not require gods.

My OP does not claim to contain a syllogism. It just says that it is legitimate to talk about religion if those four aspects are met; there is no need for transcendance or deities or the Sacred

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the above ASSumes i want or need a "meaningful" life......

very few people would agree with "My life is meaningless, but that's just fine"

@Thibaud70 My life is meaningless, and that’s totally awesome.

@Thibaud70 survivors of abuse, of which there are many, as there are all kinds of abuse, i assure you, pretty much just want peace & quiet.

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Religions have doctrine; dogma or laws. Religions occur when people share the same belief and someone organises things.
A Shared belief will often have a shared purpose. That is community.
Nones have no doctrine. Religious like fever is displayed by some with shared purpose but are they religions or fleeting cults?

puff Level 8 Mar 19, 2023

A Marxist is a "None" but he or she certainly has / subscribes to a doctrine. Same can be said about those who are part of the so-called Social Justice Movement

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I think anyone who truly understands the nature of reality and meaning/purpose in relation to metaphysical properties the way religions/ the religious explain would wholly disagree that a "none" would meet the first two requirements.

As I see it, a 'none' just has no affiliation concerning the traditional religious denominations; he or she is no Catholic, Protestant, Jew, Muslim etc...
A Marxist, for example, is not religious in a traditional way, but would nevertheless affirm that history has meaning, that his life has a purpose, that Marxists are his community and that they celebrate this community with certain rituals

@Thibaud70 We disagree about the definition of "meaning" exactly the way I described. If you change "meaning" from 'there is meaning to the goings on of human life and there is an intended goal to human existence' to 'we are here because of cause and effect, cause and effect is the meaning for how/why we exist' then you can say that they meet that checklist. But I think those are vastly different definitions.
To me, it's the same kind of difference between the following two uses of the word 'lucky':
He will win the lottery because he's lucky.
He's lucky because he won the lottery.

Those are completely different definitions of the word lucky. One carries with it some magical or metaphysical property that causes an effect on the world, the other is simply a description of events that happened in the past in relation to one's view of how favorable those events are.

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This all seems very true on the surface but then exceptions creep in. For example, a person can be in church and hear the minister claim that we all believe alike. Those of us in this meeting all believe the same things religiously. In private talks with any of these people you find that it is not true. This is also the reason there are so many religious denominations.

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Religion by definition involves binding oneself to a set of ideals. The very word religion come from the same root Latin word as ligature, "ligatus" to bind and the Latin prefix re- to redo, to go through again, hence weekly rituals to re-tighten the binding of one self to an ideology. So as far as this goes, what you present is a fair definition of a religion, other than it lacks a supernatural element and a requirement for faith which is a priority for almost all religions. Communism for example meets ALL the requirements for a religion other than that its object of faith is an ambition, a belief in a future conforming to the ideals of Marx and the communist patriarchs and it outright rejects the supernatural (only room for one boogie man in the commie camp).
So without that supernatural element an ideology can and Does have a hard time selling itself as a religion.
Atheism I would argue, meets none of the requirements, it is simply an intellectual standpoint, in that to be atheist all that is required is an opinion that the concept of a god or gods existing has spectacularly failed to meet its burden of proof and so can be logically rejected as not even worthy of being considered an hypothesis.
It seeks not to give life meaning
It offers or delivers no perfect method for living a life, not offers any meaning for life.
There is no weekly or periodic rebinding neither compulsory or even voluntary ritual
and other than expressing loosely connected ideas based around (lets face it) worrying about the dangerous effect religion is having on the world there is no official or even casual atheist community other than perhaps a few activist organizations such as the FFRF and the Satanic temple who enjoy winding up bigots and throwing stumbling blocks in to the way of their pious pontifications and parading.

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Sure, why not? Religion, after all, does not necessarily have to be about belief in supernatural forces or beings. The word "religion" comes from the Italian "religgio," meaning re-linking, as in finding the (lost) connection between one's self and his/her/their cosmic origins. In this sense, science can be considered a form of religion.

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