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What makes you think human beings are sentient and aware? There's no evidence for it. Human beings never think for themselves, they find it too uncomfortable. For the most part, members of our species simply repeat what they are told-and become upset if they are exposed to any different view. The characteristic human trait is not awareness but conformity, and the characteristic result is religious warfare. Other animals fight for territory or food; but, uniquely in the animal kingdom, human beings fight for their 'beliefs.' The reason is that beliefs guide behavior which has evolutionary importance among human beings. But at a time when our behavior may well lead us to extinction, I see no reason to assume we have any awareness at all. We are stubborn, self-destructive conformists. Any other view of our species is just a self-congratulatory delusion. Next question. ~Michael Crichton

(Book: The Lost World [amzn.to]

(Art: Photograph by Rodney Smith)

FrostyJim 8 May 22
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1

Well, in an attempt to answer the bleeding obvious, the fact that we are discussing sentience requires a certain degree of sentience. Of course, our concept of sentience can only be for the most part viewed through the lens of human existence but just as Ohms theorem can only be proven using machines calibrated using Ohms theorem, some things need to be taken on trust as we have nothing else to compare it to and it works.
Also, we view not just sentience as an abstract concept but almost everything else. All of the animal emotions sex, affection, hunger, thirst, anger, rage, loss and fear etc can be viewed as concepts as well as actualities. For humans, a romantic movie featuring Rita Hayworth or Robert Redford might induce feelings of attraction, but a dog would not react similarly to a Lassie film. The former is excited by the concept of sex, not the actuality. Similarly, we might cry when listening to "Old Shep" or watching a sad movie because it invokes the concept of loss.
We not only conceptualise concrete emotions but have invented purely abstract concepts as well such as justice, freedom, sin, god, mathematics, beauty, language, art, politics etc. The fact that we might go to war over a concept rather than just which bit of forest we occupy does not make us any better than chimps, just that we have more in our heads than bananas. (Yes I know chimps don't eat bananas in the wild) Whilst it may be possible that dolphins spend their day discussing the best way to express the square root of prime numbers since we have no evidence to support that idea we have to assume it is implausible.
The idea that we are fashioned by events and not by independent thought is a very Marxist view. And whilst it does have some validity, it is negated by all the people Bertrand Russell described as "unreasonable people"
who change the world to suit them better rather than accepting it as it is. People like Thomas Paine, Ben Franklin, Jefferson, Lincoln, and MLK who inspire others to change the world, including ironically Marx himself. Then you have all of the wonderful scientists and artists who changed the way we view the universe.
That we may be heading for self-destruction collectively, does not negate our individual or collective sentience. The fact that so many of us acknowledge that concept proves it. Whether or not it will do us any good, only time will tell.

That movie with Robert Redford on the leaky boat caused me and the person I watched it with extreme anxiety for an hour and 46 minutes.

In other words, Crichton paints with too broad a brush.

@273kelvin - The reality that true genius is actually quite rare and the idea that the general mass of humanity is not intellectually enlightened is worth considering as it was so postulated... the idea that some of us are able to ponder that is interesting - like the science of Neurology which is the concept of our brain studying itself? As George Carlin so eloquently said... "Imagine how stupid the average person is, and then you realize that half of humanity is stupider than that..."

@FrostyJim Just because some horses run faster than others does not mean that horses cannot run fast. We also have written language and specialisation. True I know very little about brain surgery but then the neurosurgeon who once employed me knew very little about assembling his flat-pack wardrobe! (Btw he opined that brain surgery is no more complicated than any other). However, most of us know how to defer, delegate or at least consult someone with specialist knowledge. (anti-vaxers and climate change deniers being the exception) We pretty much all know "head hurts, take aspirin", thus consciously altering our internal environment.
As I have travelled through life, I have found that most are not that smart but not that dumb either. Yes, some are ignorant but that is not the same as dumb. Most have at least one interesting story to tell and something you can take away from the encounter. If that has not been your experience, then perhaps you have not been listening well enough?

@273kelvin - hmmmm... sounds like a lot of anecdotal hyperbole to me... yes brain surgery is much more complicated than other surgeries and Neurosurgery is a subset of Neurology or better yet Neuroscience - or the study of the brain and nervous system... by the brain itself. The quandary still remains - nurture vs nature or trait vs acquired? Darwin regards Evolution as survival of those best capable to adapt and pass on their genes. That may include our intelect as simply a biologic evolutionary byproduct? There is a good book " The God Part of the Brain" that presents a scientific argument why belief in God is an inherent evolutionary mechanism that enables us to cope with our greatest, universal terror-death.

@FrostyJim I can only repeat what the guy said to me but he may have been jaded by the number of times people's eyes widen when he told them what he does. Btw I previously used to say my job was not as complicated as nuclear physics till I did work for a lady who worked for the inspectorate.

2

How do we know that the smallest gnat we swat was not sentient and happy in its two day existence?

The gnat does not have the nervous tissue to support higher level consciousness. It's just a little biological machine acting out a set of genetically programmed instincts.

@Flyingsaucesir To our understanding of higher purpose. lol

A gnat might enjoy its day of birth rut and die though?

@BufftonBeotch Depends on what you mean by "enjoy."

@Flyingsaucesir I just hope they get some pleasure in that day. I doubt they appreciate and linger to watch their one sunset. And what it it was raining? snicker

@BufftonBeotch I think those lifespans a a bit longer than one day. Prolly measured in weeks

@Gwendolyn2018 Crows remember faces of humans and will bring treasures of found shiny things to people they have come to favor.
They will also dislike some people and loudly cry out when they see them.
Do not live life in such a way that you call forth the wrath of crows.

@Flyingsaucesir I would like to imagine the smallest of beings get some pleasure in existing before their eyes go through their asshole on a windshield.

@Gwendolyn2018 How would your alien see all humanity lumped together? Probably not as favorably as we see ourselves.

Elephants recognize themselves in a mirror. That's a sign of self awareness, which indicates higher level consciousness or sentience.

I would say that crows are sentient beings.

@Gwendolyn2018 Crows are awesome.

3

Ummmm, so where do the ideas we take for repeat/granted COME FROM?
Obviously Somebody is thinking, somewhere.......

We are here merely to feed the world's cats their noms and to clean their poo sand as they are clearly the master race.

@BufftonBeotch I like dogs, they think i am their master.......

3

Michael Crichton has told a couple of entertaining stories and movies and ER. He was also very anti choice and I do not think he is necessarily a touch point for deep thought.

Crichton likes to play around with (and stretch) the possibilities that present themselves at the limits of scientific knowledge. And he knows how to weave together a commercially successful story. In the end, he generates more questions than answers. That's OK; questions can be useful too.

@Flyingsaucesir The Andromeda Strain shook me the most of any of his books.

That story has not gotten a retelling in film above a flat soap opera type rendition.

@BufftonBeotch Was that a Charleton Heston film?

@BufftonBeotch Oh! I remember now: they figured out why the baby didn't get sick; low blood pH due to constant crying. And so the world was saved. 😂

@Flyingsaucesir I don't think so. But the only Charlton Heston movie I like is Planet of the Ape because he runs about in that little loincloth for most of it. He was in Earthquake and many other mostly camp movies that I am not sure he ever realized were camp.

@BufftonBeotch You're right. CH was not in Andromeda Strain. I must have been thinking of Soilent Green. 😂

3

Human beings do not really fight for beliefs, it is beliefs that fight for territory in the human media, and use some of their human pets as ammunition.

8

OK, that's one opinion.

Hardly 🤠

Look around you, most people are culturally conditioned, fact….👀

6

Bullshit.

Michael Crichton was a horror show. Some good stories. But he would have been more comfortable in the 16th century.

4

Although the majority likely fit this mold of being culturally conditioned. There are a handful of us woke ass snowflakes floating around that are somewhat sentient in nature. Unless you eat my Doritos, then imma kicking your mfing ass….🤷🏻♂️

Probably not enough of us to make any differenc?

Given the nearly nil response to climate change, I would say you are correct…..

Doritos lives Matter...
" Woke ass snowflake". Great Tee shirt idea . lol

1

I recognized the passage but couldn’t place it at first. Loved that book….🙃

3

"You have to leave now and never come back here. Have you ever heard of insect politics? Neither have I. Insects don’t have politics. They’re very brutal. No compassion, no compromise. We can’t trust the insect. I’d like to become the first insect politician. You see, I’d like to, but, I’m afraid, uh… I’m saying… I’m saying, I’m an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it. But now the dream is over and the insect is awake. I’m saying: ‘I’ll hurt you if you stay.’"
-- David Cronenburg, The Fly

Isn't that Seth? Ages since I have seen the movie.

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