Isn't it strange that those people from the Left, who are all too eager to call out the tiniest micro-aggression (when it is directed against a marginalized group), are unable to condemn an atrocious XXL-macro-aggression (1200 civilians massacred by Hamas), just because the victims are seen as "white", and white people cannot be victims (and if it seems so, at first glance, they somehow deserve it) ?
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Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.All the reporting I am seeing on the Hamas attack is using adjectives like "barbaric," and/or "heinous," or nouns like "atrocity" to describe it. I am a progressive lefty, and I agree with those assessments. So I don't know what you are talking about. The other day, you intimated that I was antisemitic or a Nazi sympathizer merely because I pointed out that the long run of troubles in the area stems from an original sin (i.e. Jews kicking Moslems out of their homes, and continued illegal building of Jewish settlements on Palestinian lands). Now you attack the Left at large with a spurious accusation, and you don't provide any examples or evidence to back up your claim.
If I remember correctly, in a previous thread you called for the total annihilation of Hamas. But you didn't say how you would do that without killing a lot of non-Hamas Palestinian civilians. Did it ever occur to you that many of us on the left are capable of thinking ahead a few steps; that we can see the potential for an Israeli overreaction causing a massive humanitarian crisis?
By the way, I would lament such a crisis not only out of sympathy for innocent Palestinians, but also because it would hurt Israel too. I would like to see Israel survive and succeed as a nation. I don't think mistreating others advances their cause.
Flyingsaucesir
Level 8
Oct 14, 2023
3
Oh yes ! That's the root of all the bloodshed in this region: Israel's "overreaction".
In 1948, when Arabs attacked newly founded Israel because they wanted to kill those Jews, Israel overreacted and won the war. Evil Jews!
Same story in 1967 and in 1973. ...
The point is: if Israel had not "overreacted" on these occasions, it would not longer exist.
Just look at Gaza: there have been x wars there since Sharon abandoned the territory in 2006 (in the vain hope to get peace for land). ALL these wars started when Hamas fired rockets towards Israel, and then.... of course... the "Overreaction" of the attacked,
If you want to find some kind of root cause for the mess there, I'd would say it#s the Arab overconfidence that (a) this land belongs to them alone, and (b-) that they are the stronger side and have the power to annihilate Israel. They NEVER considered or opted for some kind of peaceful co-existence .
Yes, Israel OVER-reacted on some occasions, nobody can deny this, but after all they reacted!
@Thibaud70 There was the original sin, and it has been tit for tat ever since. Israel has always had more fire power, better training, better organization, better logistics, and they have also been lucky. They always hit back harder than they got hit, thinking they're going to teach their enemies a lesson: don't mess with Israel. But that strategy does not seem to be working. Piling up bodies does not erase the original sin. The Palestinians just get more resentful. The stain does not come out in the wash.
@Flyingsaucesir Sure, it's tit for tat, because that's how it works in a dog-eats-dog world. You have to be strong if you don#t want to be the victim.
If Israel had not hit back hard it probably would no longer exist.
Or what is your solution? Should the Jews turn the other cheek?
Don't forget that Israel was founded by survivors of the Holocaust, and their unofficial motto is "For 2000 years, Jews had been the helpless victims of progroms and genocides. This shall happen no more !" - I do not blame them for this.
@Thibaud70 I think they need to repair the original sin, or at least convince the Palestinians that they are getting the best deal they will ever get, and the alternative is far worse. Continued expansion of illegal settlements in the West Bank, and keeping 2 million Palestinians in the world's biggest prison is definitely not the answer.
They are stealing the land, people live there, and had for centuries,the Jews got along fine in that area with everyone,before White Israel.. Jews live peacefully in Iran to this Day.... Not sure there's any White Jews there though... Europeans with a religion Just fucking thieve ... Mow the lawn ..
And The IDF let that attack happen , and those people had their backs against the wall... Joe perry goes to Israel to help shoot Palestinians for fun ...
Rachel Corey, American Jewish underage 17yo girl bulldozed..... Then the IDF makes fun of her calling pancakes Corey cakes....
When they eat breakfast.... Dancing israellis on 911:.... I don't even hate Israeli's, it's their fuckin government... It must not be supported to exist... It's dangerous to Jews abd everyone else
laidback1
Level 6
Oct 14, 2023
2
I can see how it might have been an accident. The driver's view is not exactly ideal.
Joking about Corey cakes is indeed black humor. Pretty insensitive. I'm probably guilty of saying things that were equally stupid.
Could the Israelis who danced on 911 have been Islamists? It is a diverse society, you know.
@Flyingsaucesir the dancing israellis they were White as ghosts
@laidback1 Can't an Islamist be white?
@Flyingsaucesir some are
There comes a point where many people are so lost in everything being "right" or "left", and are unable to see anything outside of these two labels. Everything is either one or the other. Everyone is either one or the other. You should consider you have become one of these people.
Switchcraft
Level 7
Oct 14, 2023
7
@Switchcraft
Haha... this is really funny, because usually people accuse me of NOT taking sides! Originally, I had mentioned in my biography on this site that politically I consider myself a "conservative socialist". I have deleted this because too many of you told my that this is an oxymoron, it cannot exist. Concerning Issues A, C and F, I'm a lefty; on issues B, E and G, I'm conservative; and for the rest I'm neutral.
So don't you tell me I'm unable to think outside the ideological box!!
@Thibaud70 you are labelling and assuming what other people should be saying or thinking. I was not referring in any way to if or not you think out of a box. Especially in complicated situations like this, everyone is going to have many thoughts. There are victims and instigators on both sides, and too much going on to be completely covered on this site.
Speaking of macro-aggressions there was that naughty 1956 Suez Crisis as agreed within the secret Sevres Protocol:
“The Protocol of Sèvres (French, Protocole de Sèvres) was a secret agreement reached between the governments of Israel, France and the United Kingdom during discussions held between 22 and 24 October 1956 at Sèvres, France. The protocol concerns their joint political and military collusion to topple the Egyptian leader Colonel Gamal Abdel Nasser, by invading and occupying the Suez Canal zone in response to President Nasser's nationalization of the Suez Canal on 26 July. The planning for and the agreements contained in the protocol began the Suez Crisis on 29 October 1956.”
[en.m.wikipedia.org]
An outcome of those shenanigans:
“Israel’s political leaders had been interested in developing nuclear weapons since before the foundation of the state, but their active pursuit of them followed the 1955 Czech-Egyptian arms deal, which threatened to overwhelm Israel.1 Israel’s pursuit of a nuclear option was partly the result of an inability to secure an extended deterrent from the US, and partly the traumatic experience of the Holocaust, which caused the Israelis to put a strong emphasis on self-reliance.2 France’s diplomatic defeat in the subsequent 1956 Suez War led it to agree to collaborate with Israel and thereby facilitate an Israeli nuclear weapons program.3 France’s motivation was initially commercial — to sell Israel a reactor — but their shared experience with Nazism during the Second World War and of confronting Arab nationalists, of both being defeated during the 1956 Suez crisis, and of both being frozen out of Anglo-American nuclear efforts predisposed them to a joint nuclear effort. However, the actual French decision to build a nuclear weapons infrastructure for Israel was the consequence of determined Israeli lobbying in an extremely fragmentary French executive political structure. Receiving passive executive approval was sufficient for the Zionist sympathetic Gaullist nuclear bureaucracy, but it is highly unlikely that any strong French executive, led by Charles de Gaulle or any other, would have supported a decision to help Israel to the extent it did. French political leaders, as evinced by de Gaulle’s apparent demonstration of regret, made a miscalculation when they agreed to provide nuclear assistance to Israel.”
[link.springer.com]
So there’s that.
Scott321
Level 7
Oct 14, 2023
1
WTF ?? I have no idea what the Suez Crisis of 1956 (!) has to do with my post.
@Thibaud70 What is the essence of Leftism then given bickering between identity and class reductionism to pick two supposed poles?
You made a generalization about the Left. I countered with a perhaps quite absurd generalization about the French, but mine does nest French involvement in the long standing Arab-Israeli conflict and Israel becoming a nuclear capable entity. Camus was French and said to embrace absurdity. I am doing that thank you very much.
Yours came out of left field and so did mine in response. That itself was a point.
Example?
ChestRockfield
Level 8
Oct 14, 2023
1
I think he might be referring to the Hamas attack and he is wrong. Whilst many on the left have pointed out the unequalness of the forces involved, oppression by Israel etc. They have nearly all totally condemned the attack.
@273kelvin Maybe in the USA? Here in Europe, the Left refuses to condemn the attack.
Just look at Jeremy Corbyn, not some weird back-bencher, but the man who wanted to become Prime Minister in the UK
[independent.co.uk]
The same in Germany or here in France
@Thibaud70 Bernie Sanders good enough for you?
[sanders.senate.gov]
@ChestRockfield Yes, an example please!
@273kelvin Right and Left, Left and Right... it's really sad that you guys over there are unable to think outside the box. Is it really just tribal thinking all the way down ?---
BTW... it's a well-established fact that the progressive Left in the West has joined the camp of anti-semitism after the Arab-Israel war in 1967. The victory of the Jews marked their end as victims (Auschwitz!) and their new status as oppressors. This trend has only intensified since then. If you had read some book on anti-Semitism and its different variations, you would know it.
@Thibaud70 You call me out for using terms like "left-right" on a post where you attack the left mmm?
So let us try and "think outside the box" as you claim to be trying to do. Q. What was the purpose of the Hamas attack? A. To provoke an overreaction. For every overreaction turns sympathizers into activists and concerned people into sympathizers. This has been the playbook for centuries and not once has an overreaction worked. It has only ever escalated the problem. It did not work in Boston in 1773, it did not work when the nazis took and shot French hostages and it did not work on Bloody Sunday. To call for restraint and a reexamination of the underlying causes is not to condone the violence. It is a pragmatic attempt to limit the consequences of human suffering and the escalating conflict that will result.
But for those in the cunt club, it is just another opportunity to bash the other side of the political divide. Such a non-productive waste of time and only illustrates a lack of understanding or compassion.
Nb. FYI My daughter is Jewish, her grandmother lost members of her family in the holocaust and she has relatives in Israel whom I have visited. So I do not need to read books about antisemitism, I merely have to listen to their first-hand accounts.
@Thibaud70 You asked for an example of someone on the progressive left (not center left) and now you have a problem with people using left and right nomenclature?? I gave you one of countless examples I'd bet, and instead of acknowledging it, you go into some diatribe about labels and thinking outside the box. Then you make an idiotic claim that the progressive left are antisemitic. You do realize it is our right wing party that marches in the streets chanting "Jews will not replace us" right?
You may think you know about the politics in Europe, but let me assure you you know absolutely nothing about the politics in the US.
@ChestRockfield Yes, Bernie is good enough. He is the big exception, and I love this man!. He is a decent old-school lefty, a real mensh, as they say in Yiddish. And why? Because Bernie is not from the postmodern, identitarian, intersectional Left, not steeped in postcolonial studies. To him, Jews are just human beings, not white, privileged oppressors, who have just been taught a painful lesson from the oppressed...
@ChestRockfield I am quite familiar with the political situation in the US (probably much more than you know about the situation in Europe). And of course I know that the far-right in the US is anti-semitic, because that is one of the key elements of all sorts of the far-right and fascism.
But it is a sad fact that the Left has developed since the sixties their own brand of anti-Semitism, ... and I am too lazy to give you an introduction here...if your are really unaware of this, you must be living in a tight bubble.
If you ask Google, you get links like this one.
[washingtonpost.com]
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