Thinking out loud, please shoot me down if you like.
You have probably heard the argument. "I do not believe in god, but I do think that religion is a force for good in the world and should be supported." Well perhaps some atheists think so, but not me because:-
If you see something which appears good, and offers many good things, it is still not wise to place complete trust in it. Because a few good things, are not proof that it is wholly good, or even mainly good. And indeed the better it appears to be, and the more wonderfully good things it seems to offer, the more, perhaps, you should distrust it. Because that probably means it has been designed to please, and attract, to often hidden purpose. This is the basic wisdom traditionally taught to most six to eight year olds in the form of. “If a man you do not know, offers you sweets on the street, do not trust him. No matter how good the sweets.”
Is it not, most dangerous, unkind, irresponsible and often cruel, to promote to other people, even adults, trust in anything, especially social movements like religions, and ever putting caution to one side ? Just it it would be a bad parent who said. "Make sure you ask for really good sweets."
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15 comments
Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button."Friedrich Nietzsche: “Madness in individuals is something rare."
Develop sanity & get a life please.
theMoriarty
Level 4
Dec 14, 2023
0
'
There was a little girl,
Who had a little curl,
Right in the middle of her forehead.
When she was good,
She was very good indeed,
But when she was bad she was horrid.
Polemicist
Level 7
Dec 10, 2023
4
“When I'm good, I'm very good. But when I'm bad I'm better.” — Mae West
And for a rather different angle on this issue ...
I regard all messianic religions is being inherently bad, relying as they do on the precept of the abuse of personal power. This includes not just the Abrahamic religions, but also all those cults where the leader claims some sort of divine power or authority over others.
I also regard all religions as being bad, as they all seek to suppress the notion of critical thinking and support mass stupidity.
I also make a distinction between religious belief and the doing of good for society. I do not see them as being coupled in the way that religious people would have us believe.
anglophone
Level 9
Dec 10, 2023
6
One of my all time faves."re-examine all you have been told in school or church or in any book, and dismiss whatever insults your own soul; and your very flesh shall be a great poem, and have the richest fluency, not only in its words, but in the silent lines of its lips and face, and between the lashes of your eyes, and in every motion and ..." Walt Whitman
I was forced to attend Seventh Day Adventist summer bible school as punishment for some minor vandalism, did nothing to improve my mood or my charaqcter
Buttercup
Level 8
Dec 10, 2023
7
It takes religion to get good people to do bad things in the name of God.
Heraclitus
Level 8
Dec 10, 2023
7
Anything that begins with good intentions tends to grow. That is when opportunist and con-men infiltrate making it about themselves. You can see this in religion, business, and government. Greed, jealousy, and competition is part of the human condition and always will be.
Betty
Level 8
Dec 10, 2023
9
I do not believe that religion is a force for good. However, I believe that, for some people who are unable to regulate their behavior without it, it CAN be beneficial to society, in that it does prevent those believers from doing evil. That said, my experience is that most “religious” people are “cafeteria believers”, who only practice what serves their immediate needs.
KateOahu
Level 8
Dec 10, 2023
8
That is part of the point yes.
I agree. Some people would do unspeakable things if they didn't have the fear of eternal damnation. Religion is a control mechanism. Unfortunately not everyone will behave and do the right thing unless there's an outside mechanism that they believe will reward them or punish them. I worry about people who only behave because they believe in an imaginary being who will reward or punish them. Unfortunately that group includes some of my own relatives.
Religions will tell you they are good because they believe it and it is the nature of religions to do so. I pick up food from time to time from a food pantry started by a bunch of former dopers who have done prison time. You guessed it. They found Jesus in prison. LOL Food I get here helps out and I have leftovers that I share with a neighbor who has a family. I'm not so sure the town likes these people because it is claimed they are inviting the homeless. OK, do homeless people need to eat? Food is coming in from all over with a lot from St. Louis, Mo. and this is a "good work" for these people. Now we get to the bottom line. The idea is to get you into a church attached to the building. Their head man is the preacher and they also want to help you find Jesus. Been there, done that, and I will never do it again. Thank you.
DenoPenno
Level 9
Dec 10, 2023
6
I agree wholeheartedly. Trust in any ideology without verification is unwise.
skado
Level 9
Dec 10, 2023
8
Indeed I thing we all agree on that, but the really important point is the last bit. It is also unwise to encourage anyone else to take that path.
@skado Oh dear and it was all going so well. I was not even going to comment on your "funny that" post.
"My understanding of religion would probably require an entire book to define, but the minimum expression of it would be something like…
Any systematized practice that adequately… counters evolutionary mismatch, fosters social cohesion, and engenders a pervading sense of personal wellbeing."
Skado
And yes, I know, you will tell me that you did not mean what I think you meant. But I will tell you that nearly everyone else will also think that you meant what I think you meant. So if you understand humans so badly, that your statements are open to misunderstanding to that extent, what makes you qualified to comment on the human condition ?
@Fernapple
I don’t know how I managed to escape the scrutiny of the Qualification Board. Maybe that’s a UK thing. Where I live we let just any ol’ person express themselves.
Ad populum arguments are not arguments. And I have no idea what you thought I meant. But I didn’t realize you had adopted my definition of religion. This is your post. I thought it was reasonable to assume you were speaking about your definition of religion. You know, the ad populum one. Have you adopted my definition now?
And if you have, do you equate stating a definition of a concept with endorsement of it? If I share the biological consensus that sickle cell trait provides protection against malaria, do you read that as an endorsement of sickle cell trait?
@skado My point was not an ad populum one, but was about, your failing to respond to an ad populum issue well .
I love your tactic of pretending to misunderstand so that you can launch a filibuster. (Lovely word thank you for reminding me of it.) Personally I could not bring myself to do it, but there we go.
@Fernapple
“But I will tell you that nearly everyone else will also think…”
is an ad populum argument.
Would you like to have a personal ego spat or talk about the issues? I mean, I could call you a big doo-doo head if it would make you feel better, but I don’t see how that would benefit anyone.
I said “Trust in any ideology without verification is unwise.”
You said “It is also unwise to encourage anyone else to take that path.”
I indicated I’ve never thought otherwise.
You went scouring the archives, presumably looking for some words of mine that contradicted my current statement, but couldn’t find any ( because they weren’t there ).
Then it devolved, as usual, into your assessment of my competence or other ad hominem distractions.
If you can find any place on this site where I have encouraged anyone to take the path of trusting in any ideology without verification, please copy and paste here now, or risk looking like a big doo-doo head.
Hugs and kisses 
,
your pal forever,
skado
@skado All of that still has nothing to do with my point. Which was that your quoted statement.
"My understanding of religion would probably require an entire book to define, but the minimum expression of it would be something like…
Any systematized practice that adequately… counters evolutionary mismatch, fosters social cohesion, and engenders a pervading sense of personal wellbeing."
Was at best easily open to several interpretations, and therefore showed poor understanding of how it may be read, by the greater majority of readers. And it could certainly be read as encouraging to take that path. Being clear is not an ad populum issue, unless you intend to show contempt or the populace by being deliberately misleading, or to use the dishonest tactic of leaving an open interpretation possible so that you can flip later.
Thank you for the new title doo-doo head, which I will gladly accept.
@Fernapple
There is no way to make a concise statement about a complex phenomenon that anticipates every possible reader’s perception of it. That’s what follow-up conversations are for. If you have questions about it, don’t be shy - speak right up. I’ll do my best to clear up any uncertainties about my intentions.
If, on the other hand, your purpose is mostly just to make negative insinuations about my character, then proceed on as usual.
I’ll check back in to see if you want to understand my position better or just help me solidify the nasty reputation I’m trying to build for myself.
The only thing about religion that in my opinion may remotely be construed as "good" is that it gives people a sense o belonging.
Humans as animals evolved to gather in groups for safety, and belonging to a group activates an animal instinct which makes a person feel "safe".
However, in the case of religion, I think the costs outweigh the benefits. As the saying goes, "The path to hell is paved with good intentions."
A parallel concept is a paraphrase of Ben Franklin "those who would trade freedom for security neither deserve or get either." Just thought I'd bring up that one, as republicans seems to want to give up our democracy by supporting Trump, who is you read his truthsocial posts is actually the most extremist candidate endorsed by a major political party in my lifetime and possibly in the entire history of the U.S.
Trump proposed shoplifters should be shot on sight.
He also proposed that the military should be used to stop protests.
He wants at least one U.S. military general to be executed.
He wants to weaponize the U.S. Justice Dept. to go after political rivals.
Trump said in an interview that he would just be a dictator for the first day. But since when has he been honest about anything? Why would he stop at one day? His admiration of Putin and Kim should be a warning of just what he wants to do and where he wants to take this country.
snytiger6
Level 9
Dec 10, 2023
13
He's an interesting study in fanaticism. How far will they let him go? They're fine with him being dictator for a day, but he never stops escalating so how long before it's a week? A month? A term? The religion of Trump is scary AF.
"The fanatic is perpetually incomplete and insecure. He cannot generate self-assurance out of his individual resources - out of his rejected self - but finds it only by clinging passionately to whatever support he happens to embrace. This passionate attachment is the essence of his blind devotion and religiosity, and he sees in it the source of all virtue and strength - He easily sees himself as the supporter and defender of the holy cause to which he clings. And he is ready to sacrifice his life." - Eric Hoffer
“Give people pride and they’ll live on bread and water, bless their exploiters, and even die for them. Self-surrender is a transaction of barter: we surrender our sense of human dignity, our judgment, our moral and esthetic sense for pride. If there is pride in being free we are ready to die for liberty. If there is pride to be derived from an identification with a leader, we grovel in the dust before a Napoleon, Hitler or Stalin and are ready to die for him. If there is distinction in suffering, we search for martyrdom as for hidden treasure." - Eric Hoffer
It just gets more repugnant the longer you think about them. I'm probably the wrong person to say as I've never believed religion was a force for good, and have never heard an argument that adequately supports that idea. The closest I can come is that it provides some support - a crutch, really - for people who can not make their way without it. And by that I mean they can't deal with reality, and religion is their Prozac.
I know some truly good people who believe, and who also perform good acts for others, sometimes within the structure of their religion, and these are the people who are the "sweeteners" religion uses to entice followers. I grew up with the myths of what the church has done in protecting people during the holocaust, supporting Lech Walesa in bringing democracy to Poland, in educating children when illiteracy was high. But the higher I went in the hierarchy, and I've worked in some of the nether regions of it, the more the reality - and their betrayal to what they preach - becomes clear. I don't see any reason to allow or encourage a trust in that, and I refused to raise my girls with that addiction in their lives.
But I still believe in trust. Just not blind trust, and not ever in institutions. It's a mechanism of love, so there's always a place for it in our lives.
Lauren
Level 8
Dec 10, 2023
11
Exactly.
Beautifully stated Lauren. Thank you for putting your thoughts out, as I was having a hard time trying to write what I feel about religion. You stated my thoughts perfectly when I couldn't. Thank you!!
@Redheadedgammy Thank you so much, Rhonda, and you're very welcome.
Over the years, I have asked some people, even the non-religious, why they believe in god. One young man said because his brother had died when he was young. I guess he was assuming they would both be in heaven together.
A woman came into our business and, as we talked, she asked me why some people don't believe in god. I explained in one statement why, she threw her hands over her ears and screamed "there is a god!" and literally ran out the door.
If prayers actually worked, people would be breaking down doors to get believers to pray for them and have their prayers answered.
Believers believe without evidence and against evidence, this is a detriment to society because lies are exalted over truth and accepted as normal. Because of religion, beliefs are accepted as true without evidence and contrary to evidence and others have been taught to RESPECT others beliefs and the lies and nonsense they spew.
Believers, whether religious, political, or just ignorant, all suck. I have no respect for them at all.
The Trump cult is a perfect example.
nogod4me
Level 8
Dec 10, 2023
12
@Gwendolyn2018 Her problem was, she knew I was right.
"Both Faith and Terror are instruments for the elimination of individual self-respect. Terror crushes the autonomy of self-respect, while Faith obtains its more or less voluntary surrender. In both cases the result of the elimination of individual autonomy is—-automatism. Both Faith and Terror reduce the human entity to a formula that can be manipulated at will." - Eric Hoffer, author of "The True Believer"
Preach it my brother!!
@Gwendolyn2018 Yes, exactly.
What's worse is that we pass our belief system along to our children. Racism is a good example, which is just another belief system. Most believers will never realize how horrible they really are.
"The fanatical believer is not conscious of his envy, malice, pettiness and dishonesty. There is a wall of words between his consciousness and his real self. We lie loudest when we lie to ourselves." - Eric Hoffer - Author of The True Believer
@Gwendolyn2018 I was peripherally aware of the race issue growing up in NJ. At 20 in Seattle it was Asian and Native peoples being hated on. My thought was, "white folk just seem to need to hate on the "other"." I'm a white person but until I fell in love with a Black man I had no idea what the world is really like for the "others". It is a 2 way street, we had gone down to Oakland to help his sister with the some remodel work on her house. We girls were the gofers. Go for more nails, hardware, etc. As the only white person around I got some pretty ugly looks, questioning glances, etc.
When you allow yourself to box in your thinking about ANYthing you can become prey to ideas that at first seem "normal" but suck you in and then yu are hooked. FOX media latched onto how potent fear is and has worked the fear factor like no other. Sad that almost 50% of Americans run on fear and not critical thinking.
@Gwendolyn2018 The east coast from the beginning had the different ethnic groups separate themselves into their neighbors. Germans live in "Germantown", Italians in South Philly, the rich on the "Main Line", Jews, Irish, etc. I suppose like in NY everytime a new group immigrated they became the hated "other" and moved to the bottom of the pecking order. This, even though they were all 'white'. Sadly peoples of color can't hide. The thing is it has always been about class and race and those who are viewed as the lessor are the ones who push to make this country live up to the ideals expressed in the Declaration of Independence.
I have no clue why some people really need to believe. I know when I was young, pre teen, I just didn't like it or get it. There were some fun summer activities, kids crafts but none of it made up for those hard pews, droning on by the minister, no talking and then just being ignored when ya leave. Never felt he fellowship. None of the good stuff seemed "right" to me.
The teen years - angst filled but mostly fun and no more going to church. Situations I found myself in that most would have run to the parents for I solved myself. My twin was the total opposite, still believes as do the cousins on Dad's side of the family.
My Dad was raised Catholic. I do not know when he moved over to the atheist/agnostic side but he did not want us raised Catholic.
Every faith has their sweets to draw people in and for some it works but if a person is gonna be prejudice in anyway they will justify what they think or how they behave however they can.
silverotter11
Level 9
Dec 10, 2023
11
I gave you a like just because I figured your fingers got tired typing all that….
@Buck There's a good reason I was an offset camera operator and not a typesetter or proofreader when I worked in the printing industry.
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