What if someone has tried to be vegetarian or vegan, under the supervision of a dietician and became ill; would that change your opinion?
One can struggle with producing an ethical argument for killing animals yet animals kill each other to survive, with no ethical judgement.
Please provide any opinions you wish, for or against these arguments.
Ethics are in the eye of the beholder. Each profession has its own ethics. Each person has their own ethic. Man has been eating meat since the beginning of time. I just recently found out from a friend of mine in Alaska that he has a bison hunting permit. I didn't even know they let you kill Buffalo because I thought they were endangered. Apparently in Alaska in order to control the herds they allow some hunting. If you're going to kill them I guess you get to eat them. Apparently if grazing affects people's ability to farm then you have to control the herds. As to your point regarding whether you can eat meat medically it goes again to personal ethics. If you're feeling pressure personally for your meat eating from people who are against it I'm betting the majority of them wear leather shoes. If a train is about to hit a person or a deer which one do you push out of the way? There's no ethical correct answer for the group it's all personal.
hunting is hard work. especially if one is a lousy shot. in over hearing a conversation of a "hunter" who shot the face off a deer laughing about it and not bothering to track it. you have to track, drag it out and prepare. work. Do hunters have that in them?
Humankind did not claw its way to the top of the food chain just to eat vegetables. If we were not intended to eat animals they would run faster and not taste as good.
There’s a hint of creationism in that answer, lol
The same argument could be made for Jeffrey Dahmer and his choice of cuisine then, could it not? Not my idea of fine dining but the logic would be the same, Jeshuey.
@SamHarrisFan Not at all. Lions don't eat each other, and sharks have not developed a millennia old moral code.
@jeshuey True. So, you posit that humans like Jeffrey Dahmer are more anomalies to our species versus a norm? Like if a lion did eat another lion, it would be very untypical to do so.
I see nothing wrong in eating meat as long as there is no animal suffering involved. And there's the rub, most of today's meat is a cruel production line process. This is an important factor amongst many that lead me to a vegetarian diet.
Everything alive eats something that was alive. that's how it works. its unethical for humans to be cruel beyond what it takes to kill things. it unethical to kill things for fun or greed.if you kill the wolf you lose the grass
@NotAndrew very rare but very true
No, animals eat other animals and we are a part of that aren't we?
How we treat other species is one thing but we are what we are.
I don't judge or criticise those that chose a different path so perhaps they shouldn't push their ideals on everyone else.
I find that unethical.
Too many people swing from one extreme side to the other. My diet consists of about 90% veggies 10% meat and fish. I'm very healthy and happy. If everyone ate meat in moderation, lots of problems would go away.
I agree 100%
Micheal Pollan Manifesto: Eat real food (food your grandmother would recognize), not too much, mostly plants.
Way to go Girl, I eat meat daily but in small amounts, Lots of patato, veggies and fruit, without meat(protein) you deprive your body, I am thin, healthy and strong
Our natural diet includes meat, but our higher functioning questions the ethical nature of killing other animals. I at once think it’s silly to argue that eating meat is unethical (it’s what we are), while at the same time finding hunting repellant. I would hunt if I had too, but I find gratuitous killing unconscionable. Perhaps we need to find another source of complex proteins.
Despite being a vegetarian & believing in animal rights, I tend to defend people who hunt for their meat. If you think about it, a deer or whatever gets to live a normal, natural life & then is killed, hopefully fairly quickly. Compare that to an animal that has lived in confinement all its life, unable to do most of its natural activities, bored & stressed. Then it's loaded into a truck, possibly by someone who uses a cattle prod to shock it painfully. Surrounded by other terrified animals, it may be trucked a very long way with no food or water. Then the stress & fear of the slaughter house but hopefully a fairly painless death. I'd rather be the deer, wouldn't you? Trophy hunting & just killing for fun--in my mind those people are sick in the head.
I personally don't have any issues if anyone eats meat or not.
I do have issues with how the animals are treated and think that they should have as good a life as can be provided with no mistreatment, or as little as possible.
That being said, I want as good a life as I can have as well, and if someone wants to eat me when I'm done, I'm okay with that too.
I have a bigger issue with hop-on-the-band-wagon vegetarians/vegans who think they have all the answers, can do no wrong, and know what's best for everyone else.
I also don't like the idea of killing something or someone just to prove they can.
When people ask me why I'm vegetarian I have a pat reply which generally shuts them up and preempts the argument they are sometimes looking for. I say "I don't see why something should die just so I can enjoy a snack".
I don't need meat to be healthy (au contraire!) and I have plenty of first-world dietary options. Not everyone fits those criteria so I respect that their decision may perforce be different. Is it ethical to disavow meat? If you think it's unethical to kill humans and you accept that humans are not a uniquely completely special life-form then I think it's the only rational conclusion.
I have a ‘rare’ illness where my stomach is essentially paralyzed(gastroparesis). I eat protein in any form I can get to avoid malnutrition: ground or finely chopped meat included. I’ve tried vegetarian and cannot be healthy on it. Vegan is out of the question because dairy is also a protein source, one I can tolerate well.
Ethics are a luxury I can’t afford; also agree it’s a highly personal issue.
Unethical... No, nature is not ethical at all, almost no animal in nature die of old age.
BUT..... is inefficient, vegetarian diet would be able to feed more people per area, energy and liter of water used, that is the only argument that i find correct pro-vegetarian.
Even the number of animal lifes taken is higher in a grain farm (rats, bugs, small lizards) than in a livestock for example.
Nope I make sure I eat it all and don't waste any. As for veganism it makes me laugh that they tend to look pale and sickly or consume a fair amount of supplements which kinda defeats the object of healthy lifestyle for me
Hi Simon I am not sure it is possible to relate veganism and 'un-wellness' any more than it is possible to relate carnivorism with 'un-wllness'. There are healthy vegans (see Stephen-kent below) as well as there are unhealthy carnivores
I agree with you and have noticed the same in many cases. There are a few people who are high performing in competitive sports or body building who have been strictly vegan for many years. These people are the exception it seems and could be considered high responders, to a vegan diet, based on genetic differences. We know that these genetic differences exist regarding other things as well, like blood serum cholesterol or microbial presence in the gut. "Everyone is different" can be true as well as to say many possibilities exist to categorize people differently.
At this time I do believe it is unethical to eat meat because of the way they are raised. Not so ago, before corporations shut out the small farmer, cows, pigs and chickens were raised humanely and fed according to their nature (grass fed, etc.). Now they live lives of torture and sickness. We eat their sickness and partake in their torture. But guess what! Since going vegan, I feel wonderful. My doctor can't believe my numbers.
I'm very glad to hear you're feeling better since you've gone vegan! How wonderful.
I'm curious, however. Were there any other changes to your eating habits or lifestyle? For example, I know of many people who, by changing to a vegetarian diet (even temporarily) also stopped eating a lot of trans fats and unhealthy foods. Their choices leaned toward a much healthier diet overall. Instead of a burger or cold cut sandwich, for example, they would eat a quinoa salad with egg and avocado. In other worlds, when you take out meat, healthier patterns of eating can emerge.
I know of many people who have made the same claims (regarding numbers), changing nothing in their imperfect diets, by simply adding exercise. I've also seen people improve their health or feel 100% better by eliminating alcohol, or even dairy alone.
@Athena Thank you for your question and comment. Having studied nutrition and having gone to a holistic doctor from whom I learned so much, my experience as a vegan is now total. Actually I have been on a "health" path since I was 21. I have turned around a so-called incurable disease earlier in my life. I take no meds. I eat organic (no GMO's as far as one can). While I ate no trans fats and other unhealthy foods and exercised, my health has still improved even more since eliminating flesh foods. While every good step improves, for me, going vegan, coupled with good habits, is the most effective.
That's terrific! Thank you for sharing that.
Just recently I worked with a client who turned around her "incurable" disease as well. I think there may me hope with the right nutrition and exercise to cure many afflictions of today.
I think meat is necessary, but not as the main portion of a meal. I keep my meat consumption to chicken and turkey for the most part. Sure large scale chicken farms are awful with more issues than most realize, so I keep away from Perdue and Tyson.
I stay away from beef and pork for the most part. Seafood isn't a factor for me at all. What we are doing to the oceans is spectacularly stupid and suicidal.
If we could grow a viable food source that met all our needs with minimal impact, I'd be all for it. That's easy for me to say because I'm not a foodie, but I understand how that will be challenging for others to manage.
I think Scientific Evidence has proven eating meat is unhealthy.
any meat in any amount?
Seems the science has maybe proven the contrary:
[atlanta.cbslocal.com]
Original study article pdf link: [journals.plos.org]
(More studies are recommended for a definite conclusion)
I have HEARD the human body is not really designed to process meat, but do daily
There are many more foods that Vegans should consider not eating according to their own rules.
according to this website: [vegan.com]
Veganism carries at least three potential advantages:
avoidance of animal mistreatment and slaughter
elimination of certain health risks
reduction of environmental footprint
There is so much misinformation and misunderstanding here.
Fact: we are omnivores, but we can choose to eat whatever we want.
Fact: we need B12 to survive. There are only 3 sources on the planet: animal flesh, fortified food, or supplements.
My statemts and comments don’t make any claims or question anyone’s beliefs or morals on this subject. Frankly it’s my same view towards religion. I simply don’t give s fuck.
These are facts that are not arguable. All the reputable vegan sites confirm this. This is also my job.
So before you reply with your gibberish, back it up with facts from reputable research based data.
I do think it's generally unethical to eat meat, or even some other animal products. I'm vegetarian & feel guilty for not being vegan. On the other hand, the rest of the family just finished butchering a fresh road killed deer tonight & if I liked venison I'd probably partake. It was already dead anyway.
Everyone's heard the arguments for not consuming meat or meat & animal products. Corporate farming is unavoidable cruel, animal agriculture is harmful to the environment in so many ways, it's harmful to human health, it raises health care costs, & a few other things too. I don't think there's much you can argue with there without straying from rational thought, so I won't really go into it.
If someone got sick while eating a normal vegetarian or vegan diet I wouldn't even think it was linked to their diet, but I see people all around me with high cholesterol, heart disease & other VERY serious ailments to which animal products are clearly & scientifically linked. Study after study shows vegetarians & vegans are healthier, thinner & longer lived than people who eat an average diet.
Other species of animals do kill each other to survive, often in horrible ways. But we have distanced ourselves so far from the rest of the animal kingdom that I don't think we can justify cherry picking when we can act like them & when we don't want to. If you don't want to be eaten, then don't eat anyone else. Also, a shark, bat or tiger has no choice on what it can eat, but we do. If we are claiming to be "better" than all the other species, oughtn't we act like it?
Sorry so long-- I've collected these thoughts over 35 or so years. I don't usually bring up the fact that I'm a vegetarian, but often when people find out they want to argue about it--they actually pick a fight when I've said nothing about what they eat. It's rude & annoying so I fall for it & argue back. Their points are all based on their personal opinions & feelings with no valid scientific basis or rational thinking. I wonder why they are so defensive?
@Athena, I have been answering questions here in comments without actually addressing your original post. IMO eating meat is not unethical because it is in our nature as omnivores. We have no choice in the matter.
However, the practice of raising and harvesting meat can be unethical when the welfare of the animal is not taken into consideration. In Canada, for example, the regulation stipulates that the animal be stunned (usually using a compressed air hammer to the brain) prior to ending the life of the animal. Unfortunately, some religious practice require the animal be conscience while being exsanguinated which I think is unethical. The government is ignoring its own regulation in this regard to accommodate a 2000 year old religious practice.
For those that struggle with this question, modern food and nutrition practices makes it possible to completely avoid eating meat with directed supplementation.
Micheal Pollan's book the Omnivore's delimma explores your questioning thoroughly.
Why do you say we have no choice but to eat meat? We are fine without it. I've been vegetarian about 35 years, had 3 big healthy babies (including a set of twins, each being the size of a normal new born) & nursed them for years. I don't need any supplements & my health is good--very normal blood pressure, pretty low cholesterol, pretty normal weight, normal B12 levels in my blood & no chronic diseases that some other people in their 50s are starting to get. I'm sure I'd be worse off if I hadn't stopped eating meat & drinking milk.
@Carin Whatever I claim does not stem from my belief my opinion relies on decades (most probably centuries) of evidence based science. You don't need to believe me just read what the biggest vegan organizations in the world suggest about supplementation with Vit B-12:
[vegansociety.com]
[vegan.com]
[veganhealth.org]
[theveganrd.com]
[webmd.com]
Your argument is anecdotal, it is only your truth. Don't try to convince me, convince the movement you promote.
I do not believe it is unethical. We are natural omnivores. I personally would not be able to sustain a vegan diet. I wish I could. I love veggies and they’re an important part of my diet as are legumes, milk, eggs and meat.
@Gooniesnvrdie, I’m an RN with multiple degrees and 25 years experience. I know what I personally need to maintain my health. Everyone must make thier own choices. I cannot sustain my health on a vegan diet for reasons that are non of your business.. enough said.
i do not believe it is unethical to eat meat. we are omnivores, as a species. there are unethical ways to produce meat and i am against that.
every vegan i have ever personally know has become ill from being a vegan and had to stop. every single one. i know someone who has been a vegetarian for about forever but somehow manages not to care much for vegetables. i think she eats a lot of pasta. she is a very intelligent and good-hearted person but healthy she is not.
becoming ill from being a vegetarian or vegan would not be related to the ethicality of eating meat so no, if i believed it was unethical (i don't), someone's becoming ill would not change my mind. it would change my mind, perhaps, about its being practical.
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You can be vegan if you do it right. B 12 supplementation is crucial. It’s quite easy to get in pill or injection. It is also fortified into many vegan foods like brewers yeast.
@Gooniesnvrdie b12 is not generally found in plant foods. if it is found in animals because they eat plants (i am taking your word for this) then the vitamin comes from some kind of processing that takes place in the animal when they eat the plants, not from the plants themselves. i stand by what i said about not wanting, or needing, to take pills or shots to make my diet complete.
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@Gooniesnvrdie i don't eat stuff that isn't actual food. i hate oreos, am not tempted by them. i have to be feeling pretty low to crave a potato chip, and even then i'd rather make my own, preferably from sweet potatoes. not wanting to be vegan is not an automatic indicator of stupidity, or gullibility, or any relationship whatsoever to the food industry, even as an audience for it.
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@Gooniesnvrdie i didn't say you said it. we can go back and forth like this for a while but i wasn't attacking you, actually. can we drop the taking-stuff-personally and just read what i said, which didn't accuse you of anything, just used your oreo thing as an example? PLEASE? you were talking about vegans who do that stuff and i'm not even a vegetarian. i like meat. i don't eat 90 percent meat in each meal like some people do but i incorporate it into a mostly vegetable-based meal. i think the amount i serve is proper. and i'm not saying you said i said you said i said you said i... i'm not even talking about you! i'm just responding to you! not everything is a FIGHT!
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@Gooniesnvrdie good! me neither!
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I like this question, especially since Sam Harris discussed this a few times on his podcast.
Published on the Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason & Science page, it appears what allowed our brains to evolve was by the process of eating meat.
By that extremely general title of the article, many might extrapolate, "Well, I'll just eat more meat and get all super-smart-like!"
However, that's not how it works.
Ask yourself this: do we NEED to eat meat now [this day & age]?
There was a time when animal agriculture was limited to technology as well as the affects of how diet affected human physiology. So we were governed by our ignorance limiting us to in stark contrast to how we mass consume/produce from advanced industrialization.
Much like the time we currently live in, with respect to technology clearing up rules of law that were derived from religious beliefs — we know better now.
Yes, meat tastes amazing, has some benefits, etc. but at what cost environmentally and ethically? Are we not more evolved when we are more compassionate, thrive more symbiotically while still at the top of the food chain?
Again, there was a time when people had to hunt animals to eat them, no butcher shop, or store.
If the meat industry stopped, there would be massive out cries and I'm assuming an increase in hunters harvesting wild animals for meat sustenance. There would also be more gardeners.
Through conditioning and convenience, it's never been so easy to acquire meat sources.
There are far more plant base food sources that can sustain life comfortably without resorting to the effort of stalking/hunting animals.
I'll close with this:
With Space all the rage in the news, is there ever talk about bringing animals into space for purpose of creating animal agriculture on other planets?
If not, perhaps should apply those principles of on how we feed ourselves here, on earth.
Just because it's there to consume, do we NEED to?