Agnostic.com

26 6

Is there such thing as Free Will?

Determinism is a compelling argument, that each action that everything and everyone takes has a cause, and nothing is random. But that leaves no room for Free Will. And yet, if I was to stop deliberating options and performing what looks to me like Free Will, my life would look different, which can be explained by Determinism but so would the other path my life could have taken. Doesn't Determinism starts to sound like a new name for god?

ivypool 4 Jan 15
Share

Enjoy being online again!

Welcome to the community of good people who base their values on evidence and appreciate civil discourse - the social network you will enjoy.

Create your free account

26 comments

Feel free to reply to any comment by clicking the "Reply" button.

6

Oh... another free will discussion. Should I just cut and paste from the last? "The illusion of free will is there. You may believe when you deliberate something in your head and arrive at a decision, you're exercising free will but it's just unawareness of the processes underpinning that event over which you have no control. You're not the master of the machine, you are the machine."

"You're not the master of the machine, you are the machine," the 'great' legacy' of Rene Descartes. Do you think that that biological organisms are elaborate pieces of clockwork or more complex like computers?

As Max Tegmark said, and I loved, at the recent taping of Waking Up with Sam Harris that I attended, we're "meat-based computers" and I agree.

3

There is always a trade off or sacrifice for a decision. Some choices are just more logical.

3

Sometimes I wonder. Between genetics and all of the of subliminal things we absorb and don’t realize, I’m beginning to think the answer is no.

Iffy Level 5 Jan 15, 2018
3

I do not accept determinism/fatalism, at least not in totality. At the purely philosophical end, it can be said that everything happens for a reason, but that is an extreme stretch and doesn't hold completely true in the reality we observe.

So, yes, free will exists, but with limitations and varies depending upon the individual involved.

3

I think the argument for determinism is compelling, but the system of equations that could model human behavior would be so complex that it would be effectively the same thing as free will. It would be tantamount to the fluttering if a butterflies in the Amazon causing a tsunami in the phillipines.

2

I think determinism is just a label for cause and effect. I don't equate it to God or anything mystical. We are products of our past, our biochemistry, and our environment. Yes, if we stop deliberating things look different from how they otherwise would, but it's only because we change course (based upon some knowledge of determinism that convinces us that it's useless to make choices). I think it was Sam Harris who talked about determinism and people's reaction that if we don't have free will then we won't do anything — to which he replied, give it a shot, try to do absolutely nothing, it's a lot harder than you think. So, I don't believe in free will, really, because what we think of as free will isn't possible; we cannot author our desires and values — they come from forces outside of our control — but as the compatibilists say, practical free will comes from being able to act in accordance with those values and desires (e.g., not imprisoned or forced at gunpoint). The idea is that you can still choose in accordance with what you value or desire, but you can't choose what you value or desire. We feel like our decisions are entirely free, that we're deliberating and can go any direction, but ultimately we have a reason outside of our control that leads us to pick one thing over another.

"practical free will comes from being able to act in accordance with those values... "

What I understand from your post is that you think there is no absolute Free Will, but there is a subset of Free Will with limitations that may be referred to as practical free will? Is this idea similar to the post of @TheMiddleWay "Thus regardless of WHY things happened, it is still "I" that did them and it is that "I" that I call "free will" (actually, I use "conditional" free will since even then, we are not free to do everything we will, like fly by flapping our hands or holding our breath for an hour and surviving)."?

I find this concept intriguing- that I experience a limited set of choices from which I a/o my mind freely chooses from. Not actual Free Will, but my perception of making choices.

Did I understand this correctly?

2

I have answered this question ,and made comments in regards to this question numerous times on this site .I did not want to answer it again so I guess I have no free will .

2

I agree with many of the other posters, especially @atheist and @evidentialist

I had a choice to respond or not. I thought about it, read the existing comments, and elected to respond. So I think there is free will that is limited based on individual capability and circumstances.

I don't believe determinism is a new name for god because, like god, it doesn't exist in the extreme form suggested.

I never contemplated this position! I thought about Determinism not Free Will, not Determinism yes Free Will, yes Determinism yes Free Will, but never not Determinism not Free Will. This is obviously a possible outcome! If Chaos theory undermines Hard Determinism and Free Will is "limited based on individual capability and circumstances" then it's valid!

Something to ponder....!

2

I vote for free will as no one tells me what I should or should not be doing. I am comfortable with this and do not feel compelled by any feelings that the decisions I make are challenged in any way.

2

I see free will as choice.

1

It is my free will driving me to respond. Perhaps in an alternate universe, I did not. But I nthis one, I say we have free will.

Gary Level 4 Jan 15, 2018

If Free Will is true, then it's possible in a parallel universe you might make a different choice, but it Free Will is false, then in every universe you would make the same choice. There has to be an easier way to solve this problem than observing a parallel universe! Wait, if we were to observe a parallel universe we would be a causal force in changing that universe- like viewing an electron- and now that's not even a valid way to get an answer!

1

An interesting question, Determinism! The Stoics debated it, and the early Church classified it as the Paradox of Free Will. In the East, Taoist worship it and find the path of least resistance and Karma is also recognition of cause and effect. However, these viewpoints are all Newtonian in their physics. I the Quantum world, there is only a probability of something happening as expected. That is a problem – for religion to work, there has to be fear, mystery, and authority, but no uncertainty. Determinism fits that bill - to those less educated especially or those seeing benefit from conformity while not necessarily believing.

jeffy Level 7 Jan 15, 2018
0

We perceive the world by adding memory to sensory information. Every cell in your body has memories encoded. so, there is an element of randomness in each action as it is not a direct response to an immediate stimulus but a memory response involving the self in the space and one's thoughts about the self.

0

The problem I have with the idea of determinism is that it ignores the fundamental basics of quantum physics. Quantum indeterminancy is well established, and that being the case, there are truly random things that occur and lead to unexpected results.

There certainly is such a thing as cause and effect and we experience it clearly every day. But when there are also events at the quantum level that have no cause and that have the potential to affect or effect subsequent events, then reality itself is reduced to an issue of possibility and probability. That is, what is possible vs. impossible, and then from among what is possible, what is then most likely?

And if that is the nature of our reality, as I believe it is, then everything that has been before, incuding quantum randomness and probabilities creates the "stage", if you will, for our present circumstances. Then our own actions on that stage in turn will influence the circumstances on the stage of the future.

That then raises the question of whether or not we have the ability to actually make decisions and choices regarding how we respond to our present circumstances. This is the crux of the argument among metaphysicists who try to tackle the question of Determinism vs. Free Will.

But yes, I think the idea of Determinism does sound like a "new name for god". In the end, our experience of reality makes it seem like we have Free Will. I personally am not willing to give that up without extremely compelling evidence, precisely because it would change the way I approach life, and would likely make me far less proactive in trying to shape my life to be as good as I can make it. That isn't to say that everyone would respond that way, but it's an issue for me.

0

I debate this a great deal. I think the human mind has constructs that can feel faulty. Like the concept of time to me feels like a way we perceive reality. What if everything exists at once.

T23GM Level 4 May 8, 2018
0

I would like to know what Putin will answer that. I think he is best person to comment on free will

IAS1 Level 5 May 8, 2018
0

I agree. If you had an entity that could account for every time I stopped half way and changed my mind. In action, thought or intent, drivers like emotion/chemical/Burbon....it would need to be of an unfathomable power and intelligence. Yes that is an argument from ignorance, but I think Occum's razor is a better choice. The simplest answer is we are free thinking individuals with a limited number of options available giving a semblance of patterns.

0

In my opinion, Richard Carrier gives the best practical application of these concepts in "Sense and Goodness without god".

0

Curious how many people believe and how many don't. Please vote in the poll.

Want to know what percentage of the community believes in free will?freewill

0

To claim that you could have done something different is just another way to say that you didn't.

0

Glad I ran across this.
I do not believe in Free Will. It was that realization that led me to realize that "god" wanting me to choose to follow him and do all that other holy stuff, was pure Texas moo cow bullshit.
But, this is one of those things that doesn't seem that important, other than for arguments sake. OK, there is no free will. The couple in California who had their kids chained did not consciously choose to be the worst people in the world. (if there is good and evil, that is), but they must be held responsible.

0

This is one subject that demonstrates my Atheism. I wish that there was free will, but I accept the strong evidence that there isn't.

0

One can't control the universe. One can only choose how one interacts with the universe, if at all (suicide being the ultimate expression of free will?)

0

Think of Life as a Script.

All the time the writer(s) spent deliberating on the words, only to have Robyn Williams "Improvise".

The Story gets to the same place.

0

You will act in accordance with your past and your present... if you were thrown into the same situation with the exact same knowledge and experiences (no memory of doing it before) and the environment was exactly the same each time you would certainly make the same decision every time... that said, the very knowledge of this can change your actions in a situation... so No... you don't have free will... but that shouldn't come into factoring your decisions. If you allow it to change your decision and decide not to do something its still just because of the knowledge you have... and that doesn't get you results... in other words there is no free will but don't let that stop you 🙂 also this is the basis of psychology.... if people of similar backgrounds are thrown in the same situation they act in a similar way... if I can tell what your going to do before you do it thats not free will...

Write Comment
You can include a link to this post in your posts and comments by including the text q:15388
Agnostic does not evaluate or guarantee the accuracy of any content. Read full disclaimer.