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Can a moderate have a place in this agnostic site? I am very liberal in some ways, and conservative in others. I am also 1/16 Cherokee. I am am starting to feel I have more in common with the theist.

By Leutrelle7
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42 comments

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1

I'm a Libertarian. Glad you have joined the group.

BD66 Level 7 Feb 10, 2018
16

I see no reason nonbelievers are any less varied than believers are. Poke around a bit and I am sure you will not only find folks you have common ground with but also folks you disagree with but can enjoy talking with anyway.

Cheers and good luck!

I thank you. I am only hoping that I can fit in. I truly feel from many comments that I do't fit.

@diabhal oh yes we would smile009.gif

I agree except...people who have defied the norm regarding religion and instead thought for themselves probably aren't going to buy into the con man currently at the helm.

11

Sure you have a place here. I've met conservative and libertarian atheists. I've met atheists who didn't come to atheism via skepticism, who believe in various unsubstantiated things, etc. All atheism is, is a label for people who see no valid reason to believe in even one god. Other than that ... knock yourself out.

Some atheists have expressed to me over the years that they feel a lot of common cause with theists, particularly theologically liberal ones, although those also tend to be politically liberal too. Because they are not authoritarian, don't lead with doctrine, but with good works. And they are generally not interested in proselytizing, so it's live and let live.

The two things religion is actually good for in concept is community and refuge. It creates a huge shared experience to coalesce around and develop interpersonal commitments, and it's truly family-friendly unlike arguably their closest analog, which is some styles of lodges / secret societies. There's even a post-Christian denomination, the Unitarian / Universalists, who accept open atheists and have a non-creedal approach to "religion".

Atheism is a very narrow position on a single topic, and by nature of our minority position in very religious host societies, we tend to naturally select for non-joiners and iconoclasts. But nothing says an atheist has to be liberal or anti-theist or anything else. Be yourself.

mordant Level 8 Feb 10, 2018

Well done, I like frame those wordssmile001.gif

@Leutrelle In all cases your always welcome at my lodge

Agreed. A-theist can believe ANYTHING they want, they just can NOT believe in a god(s).

11

The way both parties are acting these days, I'm liking moderates and centrists more and more. And no shame in being a theist as long as you're not telling people what to believe.

10

I am moderate and have good friends on both sides. I can't stand the current president but I think that's the general consensus of Americans.

You may right, I may crazysmile009.gif

@Leutrelle But it just may be a lunatic you're looking for. smile009.gif

9

Absolutely , we are not savages

Corvus Level 6 Feb 10, 2018

but corvids

Please speak only for yourself...I am a savage.

@btroje what's a corvid?

@MST3K crows ravens and their kind. I play with words and have an odd sense of humor and say things that may not be that funny if you don't know me at times. I was just thinking about how a bunch of smart birds might act

@MST3K Corvidae a family of birds including Crows Jays and Ravens

@dahermit do you aspire to be a savage ? The adjective or the noun?

@Corvus The noun. My view is that it is not food, a tool or I cannot have sex with it, it has no purpose. smile001.gif

@btroje lol, I see smile001.gif

@Corvus "quoth the corvid,nevermore!"

@dahermit I see an extreme egocentric perspective, is an Idea or thought that inspires wonder and awe have a function?

@Corvus Change the word "inspire" to "stimulates" and "wonder and awe" to "a search for something useful", then yes, it has a function. Also, you are assuming an "extreme egocentric perspective". Consider your assumption from the perspective that I am a high-functioning Asperger's Syndrome person (you may have to do some reading) and you may find your assumption is not accurate.

@dahermit I make no Judgement whatsoever and making an assumption on a single sentence or two is unwise. I was just hoping for clarification, and received it thank you.

@MST3K Corvid doesn't roll off your tongue like Raven.

@MST3K Act like a dog. If you can't eat it or fuck it, piss on it and walk away?

@Corvus Yeah, I know.That was kind of the joke smile009.gif

@SherryMartin You may have mistaken a comment by someone else as mine... otherwise, I don't really understand why you said that.

Or maybe you misunderstood who one of my replies was intended for. I think I saw the post that offended you when I checked,and I was responding to someone else.

@MST3K I think you may be correct about who it was directed at but I wasn't offended- just being funny. And failing apparently LOL

@SherryMartin Oh okay smile001.gif I wasn't sure, but I scrolled and saw that comment, and I thought maybe you thought I had laughed at it smile001.gif

@MST3K A comment made by DeHermit reminded me of a saying I heard long ago: treat your problems like a dog would. If you can't eat it or screw it, piss on it and walk away.

@SherryMartin lol

8

Guess it depends on what brings you here : )

6

Give up the labels and think things through for yourself. Believe the things that you discover for yourself to be true and question the rest until you get the answers you need.

Dwight Level 7 Feb 10, 2018
5

Maybe you do have more in common with theists. Whatever your opinion, if you're willing to stand by it, say it. If you're not willing to stand by your opinions under scrutiny, then don't share them with atheists. We're all about debate.

I have to politely disagree on your last sentence. I find a lot more cordial, good-natured conversations and sharing of ideas and views, than I do actual debates. Yes, there are debates here from time to time. But mostly just friendly conversations, in my experience. I know that I, personally, am not at all here "about debate." I'm here for community -- hanging out -- being 'round like-minded peeps in one way or another. -She says with 187 cry face emojis because she lives in the middle of the bible belt red sea.-

@BlueWave I agree, atheists are not all about debate (some perhaps), otherwise I wouldn't be here. As you stated, I, too, find a lot more cordial, good-natured conversations and sharing of ideas and views here, than I do actual debates.

5

The Dawes Commission? What are areas where you believe you are conservative? I consider myself pretty liberal and nothing you mentioned strikes me as a bad place to be.

4

Political affiliations shouldn't have any link to whether you believe in a God or not, though most of the atheists I have met would lean towards a centre to left-wing view of politics. I am fairly like you, in that I have some traditional right-wing views about gun ownership (with strict controls), property rights and controlled immigration, and many left-wing views such as free state healthcare, strong social care for the less well-off, public funding of public transport, green issues such combating climate change, strong controls on corporate excess etc.

ChrisR Level 6 Feb 10, 2018

If you have read any of my threads, I really stress the need for responsible gun ownership. I think all gun owners should be throughly educated, and trained in use of guns. I am strongly in support of Physically responsible politics. Thank you for your supportsmile001.gif

@Leutrelle Exactly ... it should be possible to have a system where people can own fire arms for hunting, sport, home defence and for fun .... but limit ownership/access and to train owners to use them and store them safely. Also, I'd like to think that a modern society doesn't need assault rifles and high capacity magazines outside LEOs and the military but I fear that the US has so many of these in circulation that it would be practically impossible to prevent ownership.

@Leutrelle I'd also add to your original post that atheists tend to be free thinkers who look at the world and form their own opinions based on the best facts they can find. So it would seem natural for us to not lean to the extremes of politics and to dogmatically follow a particular way of thinking. So to have a mixture of views based on your experience and where you see your moral priorities seems like the right way to be, to me smile001.gif

@ChrisR Yes I agree that atheist tend to lean to extremes of politics. I do own a arsenal of AR's. Wether they are assault weapons depends on the owner. Mine are sport guns. I shoot paper, and I love to hit the bulls eye. If have to use them for self defense, then I pity those whom I have to defend myself or family from. They will have to be very good to survive. I have been in street battle, and it is terrifying.

@Leutrelle Actually I said we don't lean to the extremes because we take a more pragmatic, evidence-based approach smile009.gif But yeah, I was sad when here they banned a whole raft of guns which included a lot of sport handguns. I own an air-rifle for targets in the garden and to control pests and I'd probably be an active pest-control hunter on local nature reserves if owning a rifle wasn't so difficult here.

@ChrisR I don't think anything you or @leutrelle describe is "right wing" in terms of gun ownership. There is completely ban guns on the far left; all out free-for-all about guns on the far right. Responsible gun ownership, training, background checks, and on and on and on is middle of the road -- to me. I am completely liberal (but do not consider myself fanatical) and I am squarely in the middle on guns. I have a gun. For two reasons. Self protection within my home; and target shooting. Rape is not fun. And, anybody who thinks a woman can fight off a rapist in her home, with doors closed and insulated walls, already in a lying down position, without a weapon, is delusional. In my opinion.

4

I would be interested to know what you mean by "moderate"

My son posted a facebook "thing" the other day about belonging to the Church of Spiritual with no God.

Many Atheists give the impression of hard necked cynics who dismiss any semblance of mystery, and yet scientists are the first to admit we now have more mystery these days than we do data.

For example, we have a really good understanding of 5% of all mass in the Universe, but the other 95% is a complete mystery. And don't get me started on Gravity .....

All we can do is explain why we think what we do, and maybe there is a confident solution, and maybe there isn't.

I'd say atheist don't dismiss the possibility of mystery - we completely understand that there are things that science hasn't discovered yet and we also accept that there are many things that we fully expect that science will explain better in the future. We just don't accept that we cannot know or that we shouldn't try to understand and then attribute anything slightly complicated to a God.

3

I posted already to this thread saying: It depends on what you mean by "moderate." To expand, I probably am not what most people would consider a moderate. Most would perhaps consider me a "radical" but from my perspective, of course, I'm a moderate. It is a VERY relative term.

I am open to all views and viewpoints as long as I am not condemned for my own. That being said, I often am. So that tends to put me on the defensive rather quickly and it is a learned behavior from years of dealing with people.

If you are speaking of religion I am very tolerant of theists. Again as long as they don't force it on me, I'm actually somewhat jealous of them. I wish my life and universe could be that simple.

As for politics, I'm a cynic. I've not held the "mainstream" view for most of my life and, while I would say that my positions have been vindicated by what are now historical events, I still find myself outside most of mainstream thought. I guess it is hard to label myself a "moderate".

Further, I believe that discussing political questions vigorously is essential. The situation is much too dire to leave it unspoken. So I support strong political discussions. We are facing several ongoing crises. Not the least of which is that Orange clown king and his minions in the Reptilian (oops, I mean republiCON) party.

marmot84 Level 7 Feb 10, 2018
3

Despite the name of the site being a centrist name, you will find VERY little tolerance to the religious point of view here. Trust me, I've brought this up and been shot down on this notion. As such, if you feel you have anything in common with the theist, be prepared to be shot down in the harshest of terms.

As for politics, most people here are staunch liberals. Most. Not all. As such, if you feel you have anything in common with the conservatives or republicans, be prepared to be shot down again in the harshest of terms

As proof of this, about half of the top 10 super-users have already blocked me not because I was an asshole to them, or insulted them, or misbehaved poorly towards them... but merely because my center-line POV was abrasive to their polarized POV.

As such, a centrist view is welcome here in principle but you will find that, like any other online venue, an extreme view is more accepted. For this reason, I think people like you and I (I'm very center politically and theologically, hence my screen-name smile009.gif ) are VERY much needed here not because we will be accepted but because of the opposite, because we are rejected and thus bring a new, fresh, and more balanced approach to the discussion.

I think you just nailed the answer I was looking for. I don't want to twist the dog's nose. If you do enough it will bite you. I was getting the feeling that this site is primarily very liberal politicly. I was fishing for conformation.

@Leutrelle And, there, you got it! Woo hoo!

I wonder if it would have been easier to specify the response you were fishing for before the rest of the group spent time reassuring you that you are welcome here. Hmmm.....

3

Depends on how you define "moderate"

marmot84 Level 7 Feb 10, 2018
3

You have to make your own decision, I will like to believe the theist is not constantly talking about what the atheist is doing or planning to do. Something that I keep bumping in here is the word god and religion way too often. But maybe it was too much for me to ask for absence of those words. I shed them over 50 years ago. But is your call... I will like to believe there is a place for everyone and then again... we do nothing but god this... and religion that. It is like a 12 step program... when I was already on step 13. I won my personal war with god many years ago... I am sorry I am not joining in for others wars. But you have to stay True to who you are and what do you want.

I don't like political dogma! Religious people fear me so I have no problems with theist. If they mind their manners, then I mind mine. On this site when it comes to politics it can be nasty. I did a poll on this site and I found I am out number 20 to 1.

@Leutrelle Got you... stay a while. There is a reason why I don't vote and do not complaint about government much but I do take it as an offense when people believe a third party will make things better because suddenly politicians will become honest and do their job. They never had... They never will. They should study politics in South America with the third parties. America is a Young Country and do not have the headstart Europeans enjoy. And we shall not forget... a Young Country gave us 2 World Wars in the country first 100 years. Modern History.

3

You can be anything

Babyseal Level 6 Feb 10, 2018
3

There are people here who are nonbelievers in God etc but who DO for example believe in Astrology or some other paranormal phenomenon. There are atheists who are democrats and those who are republicans (politically speaking) although I have noticed that the republicans on here are quite reserved and keep their opinions to themselves mostly and the democrats can be quite outspoken in their opinions (perhaps unfairly based on my reading of only a limited number of posts on this)

3

Not sure why being Native is important. I’ve got less than you, but my Daughter has three times what you have. She’s a right leaning centrist.

I’m a centrist. I believe more or less what you said you do. Except I’m pro death penalty too.

I’ve not had problems here.

Annaleda Level 8 Feb 10, 2018
2

Many would probably consider me moderate. I've been an atheist republican, libertarian, and independent, but for mostly scientific and academic reasons, I have to stand with democrats for now, but past that, I'm for whatever works regardless of what political group it comes from. Sometimes I direct my aggression at arguments and people think that I'm directing it at them or their ideas. Bad arguments get under my skin, not proposals, conclusions, or people.

Honestape Level 6 Feb 11, 2018
2

I'm confused as to why you would think you "don't fit in" here on the basis of politics, when this is not a political forum. It's not a forum for "left leaning liberals" so why does it matter if you're not one?

Have you been attacked for your views? Block, report, and/or stop talking politics.

Can't stand to read content that isn't addressed to you but denegrates your beliefs? Stop frequenting those categories, block those users, grow a thicker skin, or stop using this site.

People talk politics. Everywhere. You can't stop them. At the bar. In line at the post office. On agnostic.com. Get used to it.

People bash Trump. Everywhere. They won't stop. The guy has said and done some really questionable things (to put it mildly). He's exhibited behaviors and attitudes that strike many people as unbecoming for the leader of the free world, if not signals of fully-qualified incompetence. He's the President, the Commander in Chief. People are going to talk about it--rightfully so. If that bothers you... then there's more going on than advice in a comment on an internet forum can hope to address.

Just because most non-religious evidently skew left-liberal doesn't mean you have to be left-liberal to "fit in" with the non-religious.

If you feel like people are attacking you when they attack ideas and attitudes you hold, you'd be well served to look deeply at that.

Rather than rush to judgement, I thought I would seek conformation of my belief that this group is rather leaning hard to the left. It makes sense, we are the different ones. We don't follow the popular trail. With that being said I wonder why I am not a left winger? I have the agnostic thinking, but I think different politicly. Being new to exposure to other agnostics, and atheists I found myself curious of how people would think of me as being a political centrist.

I have found this site to be most kind with very few exceptions.

@Leutrelle You got the confirmation of that which you were fishing from @themiddleway.

Just my own opinion and observation -- the views you have stated also "lean left." So, that dirty "left" word applies to you more than you think. smile009.gif

@Leutrelle I used to be very conservative until I started talking to humanists and other non-believers. But still I know a few atheists that are not very left.

@BlueWave I am well aware that I am not a staunch conservative. I have some very liberal ideas.

@Leutrelle My point was that, although you call yourself centrist and seem to really not want to be lumped in with "lefties," you already are pretty far left of center.

If you told me ONLY your views on the political issues you mentioned, and you did NOT tell me where you see yourself on the spectrum, to ME, you would be liberal or strongly left leaning.

The way you said "I am very well aware...." suggests to me that you were annoyed with me and think I was informing you of your own personality and views. That is not the case at all. Instead I was sharing with you, how I view the political spectrum. To me, and I am sure others in the world, you are strongly left leaning and not centrist.

In any event, I am glad you got the confirmation you were seeking from TheMiddleWay and that you still feel welcome here. Cheers!

@BlueWave The radial left from what I see are haters, and I am not. We can have difference with out anger and hate.

@Leutrelle Yeah, there are definitely a lot of stopping points on the spectrum. Radical left is pretty far to the left, just like radical right.

I'm not sure and I wonder if you are saying that you have found yourself surrounded by angry hateful radical leftists on Agnostic.com?

@BlueWave I don't know what % of members on this site are angry, but I would be liar to say that I haven't read many angry comments. No I don't feel surrounded by the angry left, but I do feel there are many good people that balance things out.

2

You feel what you feel. I'm a moderate centrist, and I feel fine here.

KKGator Level 9 Feb 10, 2018
2

The only commonality I have found among non theists is the lack of theism. Beyond that they reflect the larger society and run the spectrum.
Are you conflating Politics and Theism?

I am guess I was saying that politicly I have more in common with a theist, but I do enjoy this site, so it is really a non issue. I guess i wanted to see how it felt to come out of the closetsmile001.gif

@Leutrelle Need sunglasses?

@Davesnothere Funnysmile001.gif

2

I’m a moderate too and I have a place here

and a beard

You just want to grab me by my beard and kiss me. Admit it!@btroje

2

I'm politically conservative, but socially liberal. I have found that some people here accept that, and others outright dismiss me because of my conservative views.

I have watch you fiercely debatesmile001.gif Brovo

Thank you, I've spent years honing my craft.

@jayneonacobb Frankly I am not so sure what folks mean by those terms anymore. I used to, but not anymore.
Many Conservatives will speak the word Liberal with Venom, or twist it into something else like "libtard", when a Liberal is really a person who supports, endorses and defends the principal of Liberty; The ability to live ones life as one sees fit to live it.
Which strikes me as a conservative value.
Many Liberals will do the very same thing to conservatives, conflate Cons with Convicts with criminal with a lack of human compassion. When the term originally meant people who wanted to preserve American Social Values and demanded fiscal responsibility (not anymore in this GOP)

NOW it seems to me that news outlets and BOTH parties work day and night to keep Red hating Blue and Blue hating Red by turning up the heated rhetoric on certain hot topics, while ignoring their own core values. This only works to keep Americans fighting Americans, and is the core of a Divide and Conquer tactic. It is much easier for a wealthy Oligarchy to keep the masses in check if they blame each other rather than realize it is a tiny minority who is lording it over them all.

E Plurubus Unum terrifies modern politicians.

@Davesnothere I agree, modern American politics is a two headed snake. The difference between a liberal and a conservative is that the liberals tend to want a large government with a smaller military.

2

Everyone is welcome here, your politics are fine.

Buckknows Level 4 Feb 10, 2018
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