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How irrational is society's pretense that many things like masturbation, menstruation and coitus don't exist and so have become taboo?

I can only totally agree with Swedish comic book artist Liv Strömquist in sharing her art publicly and her reasons for daring to depict menstruation on the metro in Stockholm rather than hidden away in an obsure gallery.
[bbc.co.uk]

Has this nonsense occurred through religiosity? I remembered being horrified to learn that my daughter then aged 7 and living in the same house as her mother and grandmother did not know what menstruation was. 60+ years ago we all knew what the strips of old towelling drying on the copper hot water tank in the bathroom were for. There is no shame or guilt in breathing so why is there regarding menstruation? Grow up ffs.

FrayedBear 9 Mar 9
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2

Hard to tell, but imho religion does indeed have a lot to do with it. One of religion's ways to control is to make women ashamed of being who they are. Well, fuck that shit.

2

I like this topic and that sounds weird to say- I grew up in a heavily religious home as well as my mother had a hysterectomy(I think that's how it's spelled?) So yah I didn't know shit lol- I wake up one day when stuff starts happening and I'm like wtf!? Am I dieing? What every month?! For how long?! So yah not gonna do that with my little girl I'm giving her knowledge- I don't want her thinking anything about her self is wrong or sinful- this kind of nonsense needs to stop

Good on you @Affinityshadow. IMO you are doing the healthiest and most life respecting thing. I hope that your daughter will eventually thank you for it. I do now.

1

I've never really understood the taboos. I know they come from a Puritan attitude, and I also believe they come from the fact that this is a patriarchal society, and anything to do with women's bodies was labeled as dirty, nasty, embarrassing, etc. To me, this helps explain why men's body parts are taboo; they didn't want women thinking or talking about them. My mother was the same way; I never had any talks with her about stuff like that. (I still remember how shocked I was to learn men had pubic hair, lol). But I made sure to talk to all of my children about all those subjects. I even advised them to consider masturbation as an alternative to coitus if they wanted. However, I never had a specific talk; instead I just made it a natural part of their development, answering questions (in an age-appropriate fashion) as they asked them. In that way, I tried to show them that all of the above subjects, and more, were just basic human nature. There was only one question that I couldn't answer. And they all asked it, lol.

marga Level 7 Mar 9, 2018

@Kreig From a physical standpoint, they all asked: What does it feel like?

@Marga as I've just said to @Affinityshadow. Good on you. IMO you are doing the healthiest and most life respecting thing. I hope that your children will eventually thank you for it. I do now. On the unanswerable question I recall a coworker proudly telling me that she had talked to her teenage daughter about sex. With a big grin I just said "yeah but I bet you never told her how great it feels and how good you feel mentally and physically afterwards?". 😀

1

Just throwing a few things out there! In Utah most adult men do not know anything about..well just about anything sex related. Especially anything female-centric. I used to have to be the one to always change the used products disposal in the bathroom at work because my general manager was so scared of tampons and said he got sick at even the idea of them and asked us not to talk about them at work. And someone's god forbid my co-worker and I talked about her birth control implant. Manager would get so squeemish. Late 20s, guess he's still afraid of cooties. Oh, and on the sex thing. Just a fun fact! Sex toys were illegal until 2000 in alabama. Sodomy was illegal in the US until about 2005 while some states still have antisodomy laws in place (just not enforced) as well as extramarital sex. While not enforced, its still a misdemeaner in virginia to live together without being married. they call it "lewd and lascivious cohabitation" which is kind of a cool sounding phrase. Sooo society is super scared of anything woman and sex related.

What an eye opener! Thanks.

3

I will never understand why any natural function would be considered 'taboo'. If we're being honest, once menopause got done kicking my ass, I was pretty much rejoicing over it. I am finally, after more than 40 years, FREE of the reproductive bullshit attached to residing in a female body! I don't have to think about it, plan for it, deal with the pain of it, or the expense of it. I think religion has played a HUGE part in demonizing human sexuality. To which, I say, FUCK religion. I am so grateful to be free of it's control over my life. I wish the same for everyone else.

@Gwendolyn2018 I don't give a flying rat's ass what Western culture (or others) think about it. I think it's fabulous to be done with "fertility". I think menopause is "dreaded" because of so much of the utter bullshit attached to it. Women are made to fear it, when in most cases, there is nothing to fear. There really aren't that many health issues attached to it. I think that's just part of the fear-mongering. The more of us who go through it and smash the stereotypes, the better. That is how change is made.

@Gwendolyn2018 Agreed, and good for you!!! I wish you much happiness.

1

Humans like to pretend they aren't animals. we like to pretend that we're happy, smart, aware, and better somehow. I think that's why farting on an elevator is so much fun.

And that is another reason I like you!!! 😀

I take @hankster that is an American enclosed elevator that goes up a shaft - we call them "lifts". To us an elevator is a moving staircase. 😀

@hankster ive just had a sudden thought. ... I wonder how you would react if a person stood next to you who had really bad sweaty body odour? Would you run away, sniff and enjoy or make loud and sarcastic comments about unwashed people.

@FrayedBear depends a bit i reckon, I wouldn't go all out on somebody unless they were really proud of their offense, but i might say "whew!" and drop back.....lol. I would only tease a friend that way, I've worked side-by-side with plenty like that including myself. yes what you would call a lift I call in elevator, and what you call an elevator I call an escalator.

what's really really bad is a person with a whole lot of perfume or cologne or whatever. makes my eyes water.

@hankster guilty as charged lol.

lol... you're human @FrayedBear and I thank the universe for that.

@hankster I love to smell of flowers. I used to have a very expensive French after shave that over a 15 hour period released different flower perfumes - it was exquisite. Sadly it is either no longer made or not imported here.

@hankster So you thought that I wasn't human? Why? You are the second in 35 years. The first was a freckled ginger haired chap at a works "training conference". You note that is in inverted commas. It was a group psychological profiling/ assessment session run without the participant's knowledge or agreement. Interestingly the psychologist protested against "Ginger" asking the question. I waved his protests aside saying "I'm perfectly happy to answer the question 'are you human' provided that you answer my question to you ". My reply "I breathe air, I eat food, I shit, I think. Now, what do you do differently?" I never got a reply.

wow... I've never heard of time release flower store. interesting.

i never doubted your humanity, i only wanted to appreciate the fact that you carry it well from what i can see.

1

When my girls were age 7 I probably had not talked to them about menstruation. But then again, I talked and still talk about anything and everything so they might have had a clue. But "the talk" no. I did have tampons and pads around, and they'd snoop in my bathroom often enough. Hmmmm, I might ask my girls about this next time we're together. The youngest had to have had a clue, given when she was 7 her older sister was 14.

You are right that we don't talk openly about menstruation, however, we also don't talk about urine or feces either. Everyone knows we do it, it just isn't discussed. Same as for masturbation and/or coitus, I assume everyone does and it's no big deal to me either way.

Being a concerned male parent it left me wondering - particularly as to whether my daughter was growing up without curiosity and inquisitiveness.

1

Attitudes towards menstruation have improved a great deal. You have to go back to the 1980s (at least here in the UK) for tampon adverts on the TV to be remotely controversial. They're slowly becoming more direct over time, too. I'm sure I recall at least one that dared to demonstrate absorbancy using red liquid rather than blue. The idea that a menstruating woman is 'unclean' is definitely documented in various religious texts. Whether it originates from religion, is another matter.

Masturbation is still taboo because it's a form of sexual pleasure that doesn't make babies. Sex is only okay if, at some point in the proceedings, you give God an opportunty to press his big 'create new life' button. If you don't do that, then sex is wrong.

Religion has appropriated sexual pleasure and put it to use as part of its breeding programme. It discourages any kind of sexual activity that isn't or doesn't lead to semen being deposited inside a vagina. Some things are acceptable as foreplay (e.g. some degree of mutual masturbation before coitus) yet doing it solo, without that as the end game, is still frowned upon. I suspect there are still similar attitudes towards oral and male/female anal sex: fine if it's a prelude to giving God a chance to press that button, but if that isn't a possible outcome, then still 'wrong.'

It isn't that long since oral sex was something of a taboo. It's positively mainstream now. Attitudes are changing.

@Kreig It'd be very wrong it you were a Catholic. Wrong to have the procedure performed in the first place. But even a vasectomy isn't 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. God just has to push his 'create new life' button a lot harder. I think most religions (flavours of Christianity, at least) tolerate birth control on that basis. There's also tolerance of sex between married heterosexual couples where one is or has become absolutely, completely infertile (e.g. after a hysterectomy.) While this doesn't play into the breeding programme, presumably God (in his infinite wisdom) chose to give you the medical condition that led to your infertility, therefore it remains God's decision that the button never gets pressed for you, rather than yours. So it all still boils down to God owning your reproductive organs, and you only being allowed to use them as he sees fit.

@NicoleCadmium Sounds like infected smegma!

@Kreig Once the residual floaters are gone that's it.

1

Sex in any form in America is over done. Movies and TV always show a quick standup routine where a male stabs his penis at a woman as if it was a weapon. This nonsense complete with sound and done so frantically. Then after a 10 count they emerge from their hidden spot going merrily on their way. The sex scene was simply thrown in for no apparent reason.
Then at the same time we are all secretly told taboos of masturbation, menstruation, and so forth. It's no wonder that many men in the media have lost their jobs recently. It appears that they had tried to live out the quicky sex scenes I've described above and many got caught. To bad we do not have real sex education in America.

Nor do you have good presidential role models...lol mind you if being a whore is a prerequisite for being a politician is it any wonder...

@jorj i remember not long ago a Minister or Head of Health made comment on masturbation. There was great hullaballo and she was fired for it!

1

Her art, being along the walls of walkway tunnels, would be confronting - but only for that first instance. It's a good first step.

I don't understand how anyone could be that offended to go out of their way to deface the art. Whoever they were must have a stick up their butts.

No mentally and physically constipated.

1

I do know that the Baptists DO NOT have sex whilst standing up. it's taboo to them.

Agh! 😀 Missionary position only?

YES... they DO NOT have sex standing up or people will think they are dancing.

@seecanu rofl

1

Anthropologically, I think it is fascinating that we pretend to hide these things from ourselves. Certaintly, I agree that it is absurd. Still I find it fascinating as a point of study. Why do "we" do this. Somehow, I think it goes beyond religion though it is often associated, perhaps even falsely, with religion. I don't think it has anything to do with religion really.

I do wonder why though. If not religion, is it some way of managing those with access to sex? Meaning is it a kind of dominance to prevent other possible competetors from joining the reproductiion party?

I tend to first look at most questions through the lens of Darwinian evolution via Richard Dawkin's Selfish Gene.

3

Religion had ingrained it into our society. It preaches that natural bodily functions and urges are dirty and sinful. It's all about control.

2

I wonder if it would help if there was a symathetic and simple explanation of why nature uses menstruation to keep everything healthy and ready for impregnation.

2

If a dog lays down and licks its balls no one gives a fuck. how mad is it to actually hide from humans the very means of there existance ie sex.

But when I lick my balls everyone explodes !!!!

not footballs lol

@SimonMorgan1 ROFL LMAO

keep off the acid @SimonMorgan1 or take more

1

That's what I loved about the European attitude towards sex. I can still recall the first time I saw a German billboard with exposed breasts. I spent two years there in the Army, it was a very liberating experience. btw I learned later the billbord was advertising a business and the boobs were there to grab your attention much like bright colors are used here and nothing sexual was intended (thanks Marta).
It's really sad that we had to learn about sex at school or from friends or adult magazines. It has lead to many bad preconceptions about sex and sexual conduct.

I spent 18 months in Okinawa while in the Army. Way more uninhibited than anything I'd ever encountered before.

2

In my childhood home, sex was never ever mentioned, as a result, I had no clue about sex, and had to learn about it in bits and pieces wherever I happened to hear people talk. Usually from older male friends who didn't know much more than I did. That's one of the disadvantages of a fine Christian upbringing. I grew up before the Internet, in case you younger people are scratching your heads. Now that I'm older, I've wondered many times why sex of all things was made a sin by the disgraceful old men who came up with religion.
I mean the very method we use to procreate. It's like making it a sin to eat.

It's the #MagicPudding

2

I don't think society has a pretense that they don't exist, but rather that society thinks these things are shameful. There may be some anthopologist who can give a detailed explanation as to how these things became taboo, however it could also just be some bronze age holy book that makes it bad. Either way we should treat / teach that this is normal stuff.

2

Why isn't Europe as messed up about these subjects as the United States is?

SamL Level 7 Mar 9, 2018

They aren't ashamed of the human body or it's functions.

@irascible they are busy working on it. Look how the proselytising god botherers have now completely surrounded Australia after being allowed to buy up Community Radio licences cheaply by the Howard government and the then ABA head David (Cupid's Bow lips) Flint reputed international jurist and former professor of law at UTS in Sydney. They are broadcasting their shit 24/7. Much of it bought from American Evangelicals. ABC Darwin's multimillion dollar studio was sold to them for a pittance so that they could swamp SE Asia with more of their proselytising diarhea.

@MacTavish Depends on where and when you refer to.

I think they're more open because they don't have religion to rule their lives as much as we do in the west. It also depends on how the human body was presented as they grew up...were their parents open about it? Many people still worry about going to hell for impure thoughts even as we enter 2018.

@DarwinistOne sickening to think they not only share the world with us but largely control our lives!

7

I wonder a lot of the same things. Bodily functions are bodily functions, and it amazes me how some people a reason to be ashamed of them. I was once banned from my friends house for putting a very well wrapped used tampon about a foot down into the garbage in the garbage can. That was two in your face for the man of the house to have to deal with. The women really believed that it was disgusting for the man to see that. Wtf? I think masturbation and coitus and anything that feels good, was/is banned, because it feels good. 😉

Right on @Annaleda

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