Lately, I find my own behavior somewhat puzzling.
I am "out" as an Atheist. So my friends and relatives know. Still I try to ignore the occasional "God bless" and other remarks that might be culturally "reflexive".
I have lately began to refuse invitations to a meal where I know "grace" is going to be performed. Still, on occasion a friend or relative will spontaneously express a "thanks to almighty god" or "praise Jesus" ..... I find that if it is a private utterance I can grudgingly let it pass. But when it is a semi-public proclaimation, I can't seem to let it pass any more.
I suppose that is an intricate description, so I should explain some what .....
On his facebook page, followed by many mutual friends and family, my brother posted this;
"Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and do not be ashamed of your faith........"
It wasn't directed at me, but it was a semi-public proclaimation .... I couldn't let it pass .... so I posted;
"The entire universe seems to be constructed on the notion that believing something without supporting evidence is folly.
You wouldn't believe you can walk on air without first seeing some evidence it could be done.
So why is it that religion, it doesn't matter which one, they all insist you believe these fantastic stories, just based on the story because there is no supporting evidence. Why would you believe those stories just on faith in a universe like this one?
What kind of God would create a universe, where the truth is found by following the evidence in all circumstances EXCEPT in the case of believing he exists?? How does that make any sense at all??"
I'm left wondering why I felt compelled to do that? I gained nothing from it, at least not directly. A great furor among friends and family ensued. I suppose there is a notion that letting them be is like letting them pee in their end of the pool.
But still it does seem I will have less contact with many of these friends and family as a result. I am not that popular a person. It would be "more OK" if I had more friends and family of a more similar mind set, but I don't.
Am I doing this to drive myself into more solitude? Is there a place where there are more people of a similar mind set??
I never try to convince them because to me it's like them trying to "convert" me to believing. If asked, I'll happily state what I believe but it's not worth my peace to argue it. It all depends in how the asking takes place. I'm alone a lot and like you don't have a ton of friends, but the ones that I do have are solid as a rock. It doesn't bother me in the slightest. But, it may be due to this on my part...
Very interesting. No, I wasn't aware the insides of people's heads could be that different. I do have conversations in my head that I "hear". I even debate with myself on occasion ..... though I still haven't figured out what it means when I "lose". :-/
Don't stress about it. Their incantations and utterances are just the babblings of children that we can let pass with a smile on our lips. Some of it is just mindless reflex - even I invoke the name of their Lord and Saviour when I hit my thumb with a hammer or the drain is blocked.
He felt able to say what he felt, now you have. Perhaps you are starting to feel that you need a group of people that are more like yourself. Unfortunately, during a period when a dangerous virus is being spread, is probably not the best time to make new friends.
I should think that this continued battering of religious nonsense made you want to stand up and say how you feel, it sounds quite painful and constant. Hang on in there, not everyone is blinded by faith.
Join the club.... Oh yeah,, you already did.
I don't even go on to Facebook because I cannot stand what friends and family members post.
When it comes to faith, I always think about the bible characters.
In the OT, the Jews supposedly saw first-hand the miracles of their god: the plagues on pharaoh, manna from heaven, the parting of the sea, etc etc. but they would still fall into worshiping other gods.
In some cases they even talked directly to this god. Moses supposedly got a directive from god itself and questioned whether he was the right person for the task, What? He actually questioned the god of the universe? And later he talked this all-knowing god into changing its mind...wtaf?
There was no faith required. They had evidence; yet, they still fucked up and had to be punished.
In the NT, the disciples of Jesus, and huge crowds of people, supposedly saw all his miracles: loaves and fishes; walking on water; water to wine; raising the dead; healing lepers, the blind, the crippled etc etc. Yet, they were not sure exactly who, or what, he was. I have to wonder, just how many other humans were capable of doing such things?
Pretending these miracles actually happened, the people who accepted this Jesus did not need faith--they had evidence, right? Yet, the majority of Jews did not believe he was the messiah and even his disciples were confused. Seriously? You see the dude you are hanging out with doing all these miracles and you are still confused and/or have doubts? Yes, I'm talking to you Thomas. And you, Peter, what a dick thing to do, after all you saw, you denied knowing Jesus three times before the cock crowed. And then there's you, Judas, you also saw all this still and you betrayed him? Just, wow! Well, now that I think about it, it was ordained by this god that you do this, so I guess you get a pass.
Despite all this evidence, only a few were convinced. This is why Jesus' message was taken to the Gentiles. And pagans did not need evidence because they were familiar with virgin birth and god-man etc... stories. The stories fabricated about Jesus fit right in with, and were borrowed from, stories they had heard for generations.
And, after the establishment and rise of the Catholic Church, we all know how Christianity was spread. A sword at the neck was all the evidence that was needed to get people accept this god and his son-self, Jesus.
And here we are, in the age of modern science, and we are supposed to take it on faith that the bible is the revealed word of a god and that these miracles and fabulous stories actually happened (I sure wish I had a talking donkey). We are supposed to suspend our ability to reason, something that this god supposedly created us to have, and accept this nonsense as truth.
I don't think so!
Hang in there. Remember that the believer is compelled to make you one of them also but they get pissy if you do not like that idea. This is their duty according to their book. If you disagree with them it must mean "you just wanna sin." Likewise, when god does not heal all the sick children with cancer at St. Jude it is because of "the sins of the fathers" and is passed on to them. Who knows the workings of god? He works in hysterically ignorant ways.
I also live in the bible belt, and, I can't express how I "do not" believe as most of the people here are religious to the extreme. I have an older brother (in his 70's) that has completely disowned me because I told him I was an atheist. I would like to be able to say "You will find out one day" but he won't because his ass is going to rot in the ground along with the rest of us and when your brain dies you don't know shit anymore. I lived in fear and had nightmares as a child because of the damnation to hell I was supposed to be going just for being born. After I got more age on me and became more cognitive of my surrondings I saw these so called "Christians" sneaking around and fucking each other, running "Faith based" businesses and screwing everyone hiding behind their faith. I would rather not hide, here I am and I don't believe in no god, talking snakes, donkeys, parting seas, Noah's ark (and they have one here in Kentucky and that son of a bitch charges $40.00 a person to walk through it. Oh yes and he has a pair of dinosaurs in it too. That shows how much he researched his boat I haven't been in it and won't go in it. He would have to give me $40.00 to walk through laughing at his farce. Seems like a good place to go too when you got a good pot high. I think what infuriates me the most is thinking people will buy all that bull shit. and, a lot of them do. Religion was born the day the first con man met the first fool.
"I am not that popular of a person".
What you are dealing with here, people's claim to religion.....I would venture to guess for most of them it is about popularity. If not personal popularity, then the social kind of Popularity. People like to go where there are no rough edges, everyone agrees, no one thinks too damn hard... smooth sailing. It's a Popular Place !!
Sometimes they choose it, other times it chooses them.
(Most are not likely to think that part of it through)
"It wasn't directed at me, but it was a semi-public proclaimation .... I couldn't let it pass..."
why not, may i ask
Yup! That IS the question!
@Normanbites well, i do get you though, it can be a real pain having religious relatives
I can relate to some of your experiences and feelings. What little family I have left - they're all geezus superstar folks. My Sister often posts scripture and nonsense on FB, to accompany photos and things. I ignore the "holy" ones, and only respond to non-god stuff.
We maintain a somewhat friendly, civil connection, but there remains an unseen barrier that I have no desire to cross. I had to kindly read her the riot act a year or so ago, when she got on her "saving" kick. At least that has stopped.
I find my intolerance - like yours - has increased over time. It doesn't help that I'm in the buckle of the damn bi-bull belt ...
It's too bad - but sometimes you just have to find your own tribe. Enjoying your own company (which I do), helps a lot too .
I cannot say why you are doing this. You would need to devote some time for introspection. For me personally, the vast majority of fbook "friends" are christian or religious. And I was not posting anything anti theistic or critical of religion for fear of backlash or people unfriending me. Until my mother died and my emotions were such a whirlwind and I did not give a FCK anymore. And put up some memes critical of religion. It was this moment of enough is enough! and I wanted my authentic self to be free, no more hiding in the closet, so to speak. It did lead to fall outs and people taking the criticisms WAY TOO PERSONALLY and unfriending me. But it did not leave me friendless as my anxiety convinced me it would.
I found a new flock of friends in facebook science debate pages, where the religious would come to flex their limited knowledge of science or archaeology to prove their god. And in correcting or mocking these dunning kruger or deepak chopra types found people like myself, some just regular non believers and others anti theists. Perhaps you can find your new friends by joining such spaces as well. My experience in agnostic/atheist groups was frustrating and disappointing as they always devolved to sexist or misogynistic posts or were a front for nude or porn image swaps. I expected more intellectualism from non believers and was SORELY MISTAKEN.
Hmmm I think you may have hit upon something ....
I think by saying something akin to, "I am <insert a religion> -ian and I won't hide in a closet."
I felt that was declaring a pride in his ignorance and implying that I should hide in a closet if I didn't share his ignorance.
I think a reaction to that notion might be driving my compulsion.... maybe .... kinda sorta .... mostly feels right.
I just take what people say as a means to understand they want to offer help. I just say thank you and proceed.
I have been an atheist all my life, so I am very comfortable in my non-belief. To me, any religious crap is the equivalent of someone throwing salt over their shoulder, knocking on wood, crossing their fingers or any other superstitious nonsense. I even ended up being godfather to my exes grandchildren.
If you believe its all bollocks, then what difference does it make if grace is said or not? So long as they respect your views enough not to insist that you say it too. Religion is by its very nature sectarian and divisive. It promotes a "them and us" mentality. If it drives you away from your family then it wins.
The big drawback is when they try and convert you back. This can be countered by a myriad of reasonable arguments against their "truth". (You can find lots of them on here). Not least is the zip code lottery of religion. They are what they are simply because they were born into it. But for an accident of birth they could just as well have been born a Muslim, Hindu, Jew or into a yakuza family. Instead of praising Jesus they could be cutting off fingers?
After a while, they will get as tired of what they see as your bs as you are of theirs. Then you can get back to being a family.
LOL oh man... you have family members that get tired of spewing their BS and do not try to convert you back?? Truly you have been "blessed" with reasonable and non stubborn family members! Lucky you!
@demifeministgal No, I live in a pretty much secular society. It is also very impolite and not the British way, to try and force your beliefs down someone's throat. I do have some Christian friends who are not that religious. They have gotten tired of being beaten by logic and leave it alone.
I reckon I could have a conversation with any Christian and eventually they would want to talk about sports instead.
ahh I see. You lucky Brits! Unfortunately for me it seems to be the polish way to force your catholicism down others' throats and be anti theist against all other religions. So I am SOL. heh
@demifeministgal The zip code lottery is as good as a counter as any. Say you had a sweepstake at work on the US golf open? Everyone draws a ticket that has a competitors name. Now, what would be the chances of you picking out the winner? Well, it would be the number of tickets/1. Now say you decided to make an informed choice on that event and studied the form? You could dismiss the amateurs, any players that did not do well on links courses, had injuries, could not handle bad weather, tended to choke on the home stretch etc. Then looked at those who are on form, rising stars, or who are used to winning majors. It would not guarantee that you would pick the winner but it would increase your chances.
So what are the odds that of all the worlds belief systems, you just happen to be lucky enough to be born into the right one? By insisting that you follow the family path of religion. They are not advocating truth but tribal loyalty.
Other arguments such as Christian moral code are equally spurious. The US is THE most Christian of all western nations but has the highest crime rate and more people in jail than any other. The same book that they advocate as a role model has been used to justify countless atrocities. And yes you CAN blame the book for past/present evil. Just as you could blame a make of sat-nav that sends people over cliffs or into lakes. It is no excuse to say "They did not interpret it correctly". It is supposed to be the word of God and he should have been powerful enough to answer prayer by saying "No, your other left".
I could go on but you must be as familiar with all the anti-theist views as I am. All you need to do is keep on repeating them until mom says "Dinner" or your brother says "What about that game last night?"
Luckily I never have to talk to my "mother" about religion ever again. But my grandparents and father are still around and I just let them talk themselves out, whether it's religion or their covid denial conspiracies or their healing energy ways or their anti medication rants and say uh huh or yeaa alot.
@demifeministgal My deepest sympathies.
That's a lot to unpack but know that you are not alone. You are not wrong to be troubled by their lack of tolerance for well written response to a public statement. I think that's the difference. When a cherished person utters something odd in the home we dismiss it out of a sense of privacy. Our love for the relationship is of higher value so we roll our eyes and dismiss it. Written op-eds belong to the public and we feel a greater sense of who we're addressing our reply to. Maybe it saves some from what we consider to be a restrictive or false life without seeming targeted at our loved one. I suspect your loved one's butthurt will soften and your relationships will go on with a greater awareness and respect for your bravery. Even if they don't agree.
I don't communicate with my 2 religious sisters anymore. I love them but can't stand to be around them. Isolation is part of being a minority. Use FB to hang out with the friends you like and screw everyone else.
As for why you felt compelled to do that only you can fully answer the question. I know that I do it partly to keep people away so that no bonding can take root. I've grown harsh on the human species and the disgust I feel for people is genuine. The momentary diversions they offer me are great but I must protect myself from becoming attached again. People tend to die or leave me a lot and I'd rather avoid that pain more than what has already taken residence in my heart. Pain of loss is not a kind pain and it doesn't go away. It softens and fades of memory but is still a sad affair.
I listen to Warren Zevon's song Splendid Isolation when feeling a bit down about preferring solitude. So what if it's self-protection? I'm important to me. If I'm that hurt then I should withdraw and meditate on what's going on inside. That may change and I may regret having done so but that's not my experience so far. I hope that helps.
I suspect you are doing it From anger.
Feels more like "annoyance", but OK.